TRANSCRIPT
0:00:00 - (Marcia):
So, according to a mental health survey of 2500 legal professionals released in May 2024, 44% believe that mental health problems and substance abuse are a crisis in the legal industry 36% feel depressed 47% have a sense of failure and self doubt 52% have lost motivation 62% have physical and mental overwhelm and fatigue 69% are just exhausted 60% have trouble concentrating, which of course leads to all kinds of potential ethical and competence issues.
0:00:32 - (Marcia):
Almost 80% believe their work environment contributes to their mental health issues and the top three impacts on mental wellbeing for people in the legal profession are billable hours, pressures, fact that they feel like they're always on call and can't disconnect, and lack of sleep. Almost 17% know someone in the legal profession who has died by suicide in the last two years and 16% of the people surveyed said they had contemplated suicide in their professional career 65% said they don't feel they can take extended leave from employment due to mental health or substance abuse issues and 77% feel the profession has a negative impact on their mental health over time welcome to the illuminating Wisdom podcast.
0:01:15 - (Marcia):
I'm your host, Marcia Narine Weldon, and I'm a lawyer, business strategist, corporate trainer and executive coach. Each week, I'm going to bring you my favorite entrepreneurs, thought leaders, legal professionals, and other coaches who will inspire, educate and empower you. So I wear a lot of hats. I'm the general counsel of a startup. I'm a law professor and executive coach to lawyers, entrepreneurs.
0:01:37 - (Marcia):
But my most important hat is being a mental health and well being advocate, because it's my mission to change how lawyers practice by bringing a more holistic view to the profession. So I have a lot in common with today's guest, Thomas Telfer, who's a commercial and bankruptcy law professor at Western University and who shared his mental health struggles publicly in a book, the Right not to remain silent, the truth about mental health and the legal profession, which we'll put a link to in the show notes as well as through training lawyers, students and judges throughout Canada.
0:02:08 - (Marcia):
So, Thomas, welcome to the Illuminating Wisdom podcast.
0:02:12 - (Thomas):
Good morning and thank you very much for inviting me to speak here today.
0:02:16 - (Marcia):
So your journey into mindfulness, because we're going to talk a lot about mindfulness. So for those of you lawyers who hate mindfulness, this is not the time to turn off, because we will talk about why it's helpful, and it's something I speak about all the time. So you're going to hear from somebody else, but your journey into mindfulness started after a really serious personal crisis. And can you tell us what you're comfortable leading off with?
0:02:40 - (Marcia):
What led you to become, coming from a commercial law bankruptcy professor, which people would think is kind of, you know, just the facts. Right. To a law professor who's publicly shared a very personal story and who now is also trying to transform the legal profession.
0:02:55 - (Thomas):
Yeah, thank you for that question. So my journey to mindfulness really is connected with my own mental health journey. And so I would say that ten years ago, I discovered mindfulness while I was in hospital, being treated for depression, anxiety. And one of the sessions in the program was a mindfulness class three times a week. And I had never heard of mindfulness. I thought it was a waste of time.
0:03:27 - (Thomas):
I completely rejected it. How was I going to get better? By just breathing. But over time, again, to see the benefits of mindfulness. And I returned to work, and my mindfulness practice slowly drifted away. I was back in the hospital, but this time, it was after a suicide attempt. And I noticed mindfulness glasses were again offered in hospital. And at that point, I made a decision to make mindfulness part of my life, and I also want to bring it to western university law students. And that's why I developed the course, and that's my connection between mindfulness and my own mental health journey. But I really became an advocate and started speaking out about 2016 when the zero suicide initiative at St. Joseph Healthcare was implementing a program across all the hospitals to reduce the number of suicides to zero.
0:04:34 - (Thomas):
And they promoted this program through a video and asked me to appear in the video, and I appeared in the video as a survivor of a suicide attempt. And once that video debuted, there was real note, there was no real turning back. And many people started inviting me to speak, and I've been speaking ever since.
0:04:54 - (Marcia):
So I want to go back a little bit, though, to something that I think no matter what people do for a living, sometimes it's hard for them to know when they actually need help. What was it, whether it was the first time or the second time that you were hospitalized, that made you realize, I need to get some help?
0:05:12 - (Thomas):
Yes, I would say that the mood had just sort of dissipated down into just a really bad low period in my life. And so I would say that it's hard to point finger to specific symptoms, but I just wasn't feeling right. And I went to my doctor, and he recommended that I should go into this eight week program, voluntary patient, as an eight week program to mental health program. And so for many people out there, the symptoms may just be you're not feeling right.
0:05:59 - (Thomas):
Perhaps your focus or concentration is dissipating, a real low mood. And that's what really led me to seek help.
0:06:09 - (Marcia):
Excellent. So you teach law students, as do I, and we know the pressures that they face. And you wrote a book. In your book, you wrote a chapter about the stigma you felt when you first had your illness manifest. And unfortunately, things are much better now than they were back when you were a law student. But there's still a stigma. And a lot of my students are afraid to seek help because they're afraid it's going to affect their admission to the bar. And that's true for many other lawyers. How will this look? We're the people that are supposed to have all the answers.
0:06:40 - (Marcia):
We're the people that are supposed to have everything together. So what can law students do right now if they're listening? And more importantly, what can law schools do? Because we teach about, you know, torts and civil procedure and bankruptcy and business, but do law schools have a duty to do more when it comes to mental health and well being?
0:07:06 - (Thomas):
I would say yes. Your question about people not seeking help is a really important one. There was a recent study in 2022 in Canada, a survey of over 7000 canadian lawyers, and alarming statistics similar to the ones that you raised at the beginning of this. But one of the surprising statistic was that about only 45% of lawyers were actually seeking help for increased stress and anxiety. And I think a lot of students also don't seek help because of the stigma that's attached to mental health.
0:07:46 - (Thomas):
But I really think that students don't need to be afraid of seeking help. And I think law schools can do more. Many law schools in Canada have wellness counselors attached to the law faculty so that students can actually seek confidential help without worrying about disclosure to anyone else. That's confidential. And I think law schools can do that. I think law schools can do more in orientation sessions by raising awareness in the profession, sorry, in law schools, about the prevalence of mental health issues in the legal profession.
0:08:25 - (Thomas):
When I was a law student, I graduated in 1988. The word mental health was never mentioned in my three year law degree, and we're far ahead compared to what I experienced. But there's still a lot of work.
0:08:40 - (Marcia):
To be done, and I completely agree. I teach at the University of Miami, and I'm proud to say that we actually have three classes in mindfulness that are given over a given year for the law students. And during our orientation for the first years, I'm part of that orientation program. We have Doctor Scott Rogers, who has been a pioneer in this area for many, many years. He talks about mindfulness. I talk about bringing stress and anxiety down through breath work. And we have other people.
0:09:06 - (Marcia):
Our dean of students also talks about kind of prioritizing things, but I wonder if a lot of that kind of fades away after their orientation when they get into the thick of, okay, now I'm in midterms, now I'm in finals. So if you were talking to law students, because many law students would listen to this podcast, what are some things you think they can start today? I'm of the view that when you do it and you keep practicing, it becomes second nature. You talked about, you started mindfulness, then it drifted away, and then I was only back until you're in the hospital again. You started picking up.
0:09:36 - (Marcia):
But what would you say to law students, college students, busy students who feel like, I don't have time for this, and then we'll switch over to lawyers who think they have even less time?
0:09:48 - (Thomas):
Yeah, yeah. This notion, I don't have time for this. I remember inviting a mindfulness instructor to Western University to lead students through a guided meditation. And as we were setting up chairs in the student lounge, I noticed a student got up to leave and I said, where are you going? Aren't you staying for the meditation? He said, no, I'm far too busy to meditate. And that's the common concern among students. So they just don't have time for this.
0:10:16 - (Thomas):
But really, this notion of I don't have time reminds me of a quote from the very good book, the anxious lawyer. And the quote is, on most days, lawyers, sorry. On most days, people can find ten minutes, even the busiest people can find ten minutes, and that's all it takes. And even less than ten minutes, you can take mindful pauses to start your day when you're feeling overwhelmed. I teach a take five breath meditation.
0:10:51 - (Thomas):
That really puts a pause in your day. So it doesn't, that's a myth about mindfulness, is that it takes up a lot of your time, but it does not.
0:11:00 - (Marcia):
And I think that's really important because, you know, you hope that you can build up to a longer period of time, but I tell you, start with two minutes and then get to three and then get to four. You can do other things, wash the dishes mindfully by focusing on the feel of the suds and the smell of whatever it is. And you can do that without having to sit, you know, in the lotus position, you know, chanting om, which I do, but nobody, you don't have to do that, you know, whether you're sitting at a traffic light and, you know, instead of picking up the phone to scroll, just take a minute to be mindful. But let's be really clear, what does mindfulness mean to you?
0:11:40 - (Thomas):
Yeah. Jon Kabat Zinn has a great definition. Mindfulness is paying attention to the present moment on purpose, without judgment. And it's that paying attention on purpose, which is really key to the definition of mindfulness. So, mindfulness, yes, people associate it with breath, meditation and sitting down listening to a guided meditation. But that's a misconception, because mindfulness is a bigger world. You can bring mindfulness to anything that you do.
0:12:15 - (Thomas):
Going for a mindful walk, just noticing the sounds and sights that you see, sounds you hear and sights you see. Leave your to do list, leave your podcast behind, just go for a walk. And you can bring mindfulness to drafting a factum, sitting down to reading a case with less distraction. So mindfulness really is about on the cushion, listening to a guide, meditation, and off the cushion, mindfulness and action. Anything you do in your daily life.
0:12:49 - (Marcia):
Can be more mindful, and that's really important. I've done some videos about the same thing about taking a mindful walk or being mindful even while you watch a dog poop. Right. You can do all of that stuff. But I still think there's so much of a misconception of, like you said, it takes a lot of time. And I will just say this because I want you to talk about maybe some more misconceptions in a minute.
0:13:09 - (Marcia):
I believe that mindfulness actually saved my life recently for people who follow me on LinkedIn. I was in Nepal, and I had to hike a mountain. Never hiked before. Don't ask me why I did this. And there were literally thousands of steps up and down. So not, you know, I'm talking about stairs. And I had packed for this nine day hike I was doing with people. We're going to hike 6 hours a day. I downloaded a million podcasts. I downloaded all these audiobooks.
0:13:35 - (Marcia):
But I realized that I had to be so focused on each step in front of me because there was mold on some of the things. There was grassy spots, there was literally water buffalo poop that I could have stepped on or slipped on. And I found myself listening to the birds, listening to the sound of the waterfall, and just like, looking at each step in front of me. And it was in itself a mindful practice. But had I not been doing that now, I did sprain my ankle, but not because I wasn't paying attention.
0:14:08 - (Marcia):
I could have had a much more serious injury. I also would have missed out on just the beauty of the sounds of these birds and even the sounds of these bees that somehow were sometimes so loud it sounded like drones. But it was such a relaxing period of time. So even though it was difficult to climb for hours a day with that altitude, mindfulness. And the fact that I had a mindfulness practice made it much easier because I think it would have been much harder and the natural inclination to. All right, I'm just going to walk and put something on, put on a podcast, put on my playlist. Because I had so many playlists, I didn't use any of it.
0:14:46 - (Marcia):
And that's where I think, you know, I could have made a major mistake by focusing on something else. First of all, I would have missed out on the beauty. But second of all, I could have had, you know, a much more serious accident.
0:15:00 - (Thomas):
That's an excellent story, and I'm really glad that that worked for you. And we're so in need of breaking up the boredom in our day that we're always seeking stimulation. And that's why people go for walks with podcasts or music. And we miss so much. We really do. We miss so much in our daily life. We miss the present moment.
0:15:26 - (Marcia):
So what are some of the things you've worked with training lawyers, as well, and I also talk to a lot of lawyers. I coach lawyers, and I talk to lawyers for the bar associations, et cetera. A lot of times, your eyes glaze back with the mindfulness. Right. That's why I say you can do other things, too. You can try tapping. You can try so many other things. There's lots of different techniques. But you said something, you could be mindful. Just working on a factum. So let's talk about some of the ways that we can convince skeptical lawyers that there is a benefit to not always, you know, reacting to things and how mindfulness and maybe other techniques that you have can help in the actual practice of law.
0:16:05 - (Thomas):
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of skeptics out there, especially among lawyers. They see mindfulness as something that is just not relevant to them. And so in all my talks to law firms or law societies here in Canada, I always focus on the science of mindfulness. And I. I think that's the evidence based approach to mindfulness. And that mindfulness can have improvements in mental health, but also for busy lawyers, beyond the mental health benefits, it can also have results in terms of better cognitive skills, better memory, better focus, better productivity, and that gets the attentions of lawyers, because wouldn't we all want to be more focused and more productive?
0:16:57 - (Thomas):
But in terms of the science, a recent study used the book the anxious lawyer and had lawyers do an eight week program in the anxious lawyer, and they surveyed lawyers before and after the program, and there was a significant improvement in the lawyers. So I always share this study with lawyers to persuade them that there is evidence here. You also mentioned being less reactive, and that's a skill of emotional intelligence, that we really want to have a reasoned response rather than a reactive response.
0:17:41 - (Marcia):
So go a little bit more deeply into that connection between emotional intelligence and mindfulness.
0:17:47 - (Thomas):
Yeah. So if Professor Natalie Martin in her book describes a relationship like this, she says mindfulness is an internal practice that's personal to us, that we do this on our own, but emotional intelligence is how we relate to other people. So it's more of an external practice. And emotional intelligence really is about some core competencies. First of all, self awareness of your own emotions. So you say, hey, I notice I'm angry.
0:18:19 - (Thomas):
And then second step would be to regulate those emotions to have better self regulation. That'll help you with anger management. Also, emotional intelligence involves the awareness of the reactions of others, so you are more empathetic. And all these competencies lead to better relationship management. You're better able to solve conflict. So there is a direct correlation between mindfulness and emotional intelligence.
0:18:44 - (Thomas):
And emotional intelligence is so crucial for the practice of law, it's critical for anything, right?
0:18:49 - (Marcia):
Because there's also entrepreneurs who listen to this podcast, other people who are kind of high achievers. There's, you know, the members of my book club who have, you know, some of them are school teachers. Lord knows, I think they have the most stressful job of all, right? And anybody can do that. And when you learn, you know, this is when you're not going to get into road rage on the highway, because you've learned different ways to regulate your emotion. And it's just like you get that muscle memory.
0:19:15 - (Marcia):
Another way that I think that mindfulness and breath work has saved my life is when I came back from Nepal, I had to go to the emergency room for some stuff, and my blood pressure was ridiculously high because I have the white coot syndrome. And I do have blood pressure medication I take normally anyway, but it was still really, really high. And I said to the doctor, come back, give me ten minutes. And she came back and it was totally normal. When I say it was really high, it was almost stroke level. I was like, don't worry about it. I got this.
0:19:41 - (Marcia):
And, you know, my body automatically knew what to do. And she goes, what did you do in the ten minutes? I said, I have some mindfulness practices and some breath work that I do. And then she pulled everybody around to talk about it. So it is something that is not just. And when we talk about lawyers, with those statistics and, you know, architects, very stressed out police officers, everybody's got something right now in the world we live in, we all need help regulating our emotions. So again, when people think of mindfulness, it's just going to calm me down, then it's just going to go away.
0:20:12 - (Marcia):
I can tell you from firsthand experience, if you have a regular practice, it's like that muscle memory. It comes back in. Your body knows what to do.
0:20:21 - (Thomas):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you mentioned road rage, and that's an example of an emotional hijack.
0:20:30 - (Marcia):
They have that in Canada because I would. Canadians are so nice and polite.
0:20:33 - (Thomas):
Yeah. Yeah. So I was in a car a couple summers ago. A passenger in a car and my friend inadvertently cut off a taxi. The taxi roared ahead of us, cut us off, and got out of his car and started screaming at my friend. And clearly he was having an emotional hijacking. And my friend responded calmly and said, I hope you're okay. And this diffused the road rage, and he drove away. And my son, my friend said, with great emotional intelligence, I wonder what's really bothering that cab driver today.
0:21:08 - (Thomas):
So he showed great empathy and sympathy for that. But we all have these emotional outbursts, and that's because we have the amygdala feature of our brain, which triggers that fight, flight, or freeze response, where our prefrontal cortex is offline, and we're into that emotional hijacking. That's why mindfulness can make you aware of this and perhaps prevent these emotional hijackings. And with emotional intelligence.
0:21:35 - (Marcia):
Excellent. So we talked earlier about the legal profession has higher rates of depression and anxiety compared to the general population. You know, just those statistics of, you know, people who. People in legal profession who know somebody who has, you know, died by suicide or who have thought about suicide themselves, that's. That's pretty high. So when we think about the roles of. We talked about law schools.
0:21:58 - (Marcia):
What about law firm leaders and in house counsel, general counsels. What can they do? And I guess the other subline question is, are there differences between what outside counsel deal with in terms of the pressures because they've got the billable hours, for example, what the in house lawyers typically don't? Are there differences in how you would approach training them or having them think about mindfulness and mental health and well being.
0:22:26 - (Thomas):
Yeah, this is a huge question. It's the million dollar question. What systemic changes need to be made in law firms or within house counsel organizations. And one thing I would say is law firms, leaders of law firms, need to read this book. And so, for example, a number of canadian laws opening up the book.
0:22:54 - (Marcia):
But if you're listening to this in your car, you won't be able to see it. But I am holding up the book.
0:22:58 - (Thomas):
Yes, yes. So a number of canadian law firms have actually purchased this book for some of, for their associates to read. So that's a starting point to bring more awareness into the legal profession. We've got lots of evidence now about the real mental health crisis in the legal profession. And really it's time for action. Requires law firms, law schools, law societies, bar associations to work together to really bring about fundamental change.
0:23:34 - (Thomas):
And I'm on a committee, the Federation of Law Society's Mental Health and Wellness standing committee is looking at that national report that I mentioned to you, looking for recommendations. And that national report of over 7000 lawyers had a recommendation. They're very critical of the billable hours model in that creating stress within the system. And this report actually recommended law firms remove the billable hours model for first and second year associates.
0:24:11 - (Thomas):
And so this is the question we need systemic change and work life balance, the right to disconnect. You mentioned that before. Lawyers are constantly connected in this national report also dealt with the issue of techno stress that lawyers are dealing with because they're constantly connected. And so the separation of work from life, life from work is really crucial. But this is the huge question facing our profession.
0:24:49 - (Marcia):
Do you think that in house departments have different pressures and stressors that or is it all the same? Even though they don't have the billable hours, they still have the not being disconnected, they still have the isolation, they still have the internal. Because I've been an in house lawyer and I've been outside counsel a lot of times when your internal clients see you and you're walking down the hall to the bathroom and kind of corner you, it's a little bit.
0:25:12 - (Marcia):
These outside counsel can screen the call, but sometimes, but you really can't when you're in house counsel. So did you, have you noticed any differences or when you're training or when you're talking to in house counsel?
0:25:23 - (Thomas):
Yeah, I haven't actually spoken to in house counsel groups. Most of my talks have been general to law societies or to law firms in particular. But I think mental health issues are universal. That's going to affect lawyers, whether you're in house or whether you're in a private firm. I really think there's very similar issues apart from the bill of the lower one.
0:25:48 - (Marcia):
I don't want to leave out government lawyers as well, because they may have their own pressures, whether you're prosecuted with thousands of cases or all of those, or defense attorney, lots of different pressures. And I know that judges, though, may have slightly different pressures. And you've trained judges. I know I've done some research in the past about, and I think yours were more at a higher level, but done some research on some judges that are in the lower courts where they deal with the fatigue of hearing similar to those who work in the criminal justice system. For example, the constant hearing of violence and murder and rape and kidnappings can take a toll on the psyche.
0:26:29 - (Marcia):
But I haven't done research, and I know you've dealt with Supreme Court and higher level courts in Canada. What do you find are the issues that the judiciary faces that might be different than typical practicing lawyers?
0:26:43 - (Thomas):
Yeah, I think you mentioned a major one in terms of the trauma that they're hearing, and evidence is a huge one. And we need more studies on the state of the mental health of judges. We have studies on lawyers and law students, but we need to know more about the state of mental health. And I'm sure there's a lot of judges out there that are dealing with mental health issues. Also, the ability to listen, mindful listening is a huge skill that judges need, as well as focus and productivity.
0:27:20 - (Thomas):
The benefits of mindfulness feed into judges. And also, and again, this is universal for lawyers and judges. That emotional intelligence, skill of non reactivity. And judges hear a lot of emotional charged evidence and the ability to listen objectively without that reactivity is really crucial. And the lawyer, the sort of the judges that I spoke to, I didn't even know whether this event would actually take place.
0:27:53 - (Thomas):
I was on sabbatical at the university of Melbourne in Australia, and the president of the Supreme Court of Victoria in Melbourne wrote to me and said, would you like to speak to the judges? And I said, I'd be happy to, but let me give some thought to a possible topic. And my immediate thought was to speak about bankruptcy, which is my major research interest. And I mentioned this invitation to a friend, and she said, why don't you also give them the option of mindfulness?
0:28:25 - (Thomas):
And so I actually suggested both topics. They took a vote, and they actually voted in favor of mindfulness. So that surprised me. But I went ahead with the workshop and got a lot of positive feedback from them.
0:28:40 - (Marcia):
Excellent. So I'm going to now switch the topic of your book, which again, if you're driving, you can't see it, but there will be a link to purchase it in the show notes. And it's called the right not to remain silent. The truth about mental health in the legal profession, and you are a co editor, but you also submitted a chapter. How did you get involved with this book, and what's the importance of this book? Why?
0:29:03 - (Marcia):
I know we've talked about there's a mental health crisis, so it should seem obvious, but why is this even more important than people might realize?
0:29:10 - (Thomas):
Yeah. In terms of my own involvement, it goes back to the Law Society of Ontario hosting Mental Health summits where lawyers came on and shared their personal stories. And my two co editors, Carol Dogger and Beth Beatty, had a conversation after one of these mental health summits and thought, would it be a wonderful idea to have a book with lawyers sharing their personal stories in print? And they invited me to come along and contribute a chapter and as well as edit the book. And that's how I became involved in the project.
0:29:49 - (Thomas):
Now, in terms of its importance, obviously the statistics really bear witness to the need for more education on mental health. And I think people who read this book will read this book as a story of hope. There's series of stories by, there's 18 chapters, lawyers from small firms, sole practitioners, big firms, judges, myself as a law professor, and lawyers across the country. And it's a real insight into people's personal stories, the challenges they face, the stories of addiction.
0:30:35 - (Thomas):
There's stories of OCD, eating disorder, bipolar disorder. The stories are childhood trauma. But despite all of the serious tone of these chapters, I came away with a lot of hope because people had a lot of positive things to say about their own story and what worked for them in terms of helping them continue to work after a mental health episode.
0:31:11 - (Marcia):
And that's key, because I think sometimes people need to realize that they aren't alone, especially in the legal profession. And I had an episode very early on with Mariette Claudi Davis, who has been an advocate of talking about her own mental health issues. She is a black female lawyer diagnosed with bipolar. And it's important because not just among lawyers, but among, you know, a lot of people of african descent. Talking about mental health publicly is even more of a stigma, much less if you're a black lawyer.
0:31:45 - (Marcia):
And so she and I and a few others are actually going to be doing something for a law line on kind of mental health and the black community among lawyers, because it is a subset of issues. And it's also the reason why I tell my students on the first day of class that I have a family member, more than one family member, who had been diagnosed with serious mental health issues, and that I can't be their therapist, but they can come to me and I can help them find the right resources.
0:32:13 - (Marcia):
I think that people know, you know, and they know that they should and can ask for help. It is a big deal. And with that, you've had so many stories, and I've read through the book, and it's each one, you know, more riveting than the last. What was one particular story that surprised or moved you the most when you were editing?
0:32:36 - (Thomas):
Yeah, it's hard to single out one particular chapter, but I will. But I must say that all the chapters are really powerful stories and that they're really moving. And it was a real pleasure to be able to edit the stories and bring this book to publication with my co editors. But in terms of one particular story, the one that I was quite proud of is one of my former students at western. She was in my mindfulness class many years ago, and then I received an email from one of my co editors indicating that she would be contributing a chapter, and I had lost track with her.
0:33:30 - (Thomas):
And I wasn't aware of her own story, which is a story of dealing with an eating disorder, and I certainly wasn't aware of it, and I was just really moved in terms of her sharing this very personal story, the dealing with the obstacles, accessing mental health care, being on a wait list. And it was a real moving chapter. And so I would say that particular chapter, but again, all the chapters are very moving.
0:34:04 - (Marcia):
Excellent. Speaking of books, what's a book? I always ask guests this, because, again, this goal is podcast is to educate and inspire people. What's a book or a saying or a mantra or a song or a movie that really affected how you live your life today?
0:34:24 - (Thomas):
There is a song.
0:34:26 - (Marcia):
Okay. No one asked me to sing it unless you.
0:34:29 - (Thomas):
No, no, no. I can't sing. That's fine. There is a song that I close all of my talks with. It's by Rem, and the song is called everybody hurts. And I'm wondering if I could just share a few lines from that.
0:34:46 - (Marcia):
Absolutely. Please do.
0:34:47 - (Thomas):
Would love that. Okay. And the real message of the song is people out there dealing with a mental health issue should not feel so alone. So here I go. I'll read some lines from that song. Everybody hurts by. Remember when your day is long and the night, the night is yours alone when you sure you've had enough of this life? Well, hang on don't let yourself go because everybody cries and everybody hurts sometimes so hold on, hold on, hold on everybody hurts wow.
0:35:30 - (Marcia):
And I've heard that song a million times, but it definitely sounds different when you actually hear without music. And that's critical, because whether you're a lawyer or not, the feeling of being isolated is one of the biggest risk factors for depression and for suicide as well. The more that we can get this message out, and I don't want to use the word normalize. I don't want to normalize mental health because I want to normalize the thought that mental health is health.
0:36:06 - (Marcia):
And to the extent that we go get treatment for blood pressure or headaches or sprained ankles, we got to go get treatment. And I think the law schools can do a much better job letting people know. I know the bar associations in the United States are trying to kind of do more on mental health, and some of them are even required for continuing legal education, but we have to do a better job helping each other.
0:36:34 - (Marcia):
You're not alone. This is normal. There's help. You know, you're not less than. You still have all the answers, just not for this. So let's go to somebody who's got all the answers or can help you.
0:36:46 - (Thomas):
Absolutely. And I'm reminded the message of that song, you're not alone. I'm reminded of a speaker that we invite every year to western university who leads a session on mental health during orientation. And he is a lawyer turned social worker, and his job is to speak to lawyers dealing with mental illness. And one phone call that he recounted in his talk, he said a lawyer called him up and told him of the mental illness that he was dealing with. But then the lawyer asked an important question.
0:37:28 - (Thomas):
He said to this counselor, am I the only one? And that's a story of someone who's very much alone. And that's an incredible question to ask, given the statistics that are out there on the state of mental health and legal profession.
0:37:47 - (Marcia):
Wonderful. Well, if there's one thing you want people to do who are listening right now, what's the one? Other than read the book, what's one recommendation that you have? If they get nothing else from this podcast episode, what do you want them to do?
0:38:04 - (Thomas):
I want people to enjoy the moment and take a pause in your day to just notice what's around you. Take a pause, find a meditation that works for you, and just notice your life, what's going on around you. A lawyer who's a mother told me that she read a favorite book to her daughter every night, and she found that the story became so familiar that she could read it on autopilot. And she was really missing out on that time with her daughter because of she was on autopilot thinking about other things and work.
0:38:48 - (Thomas):
So that's an example of missing out on the present moment. So, advice? Just notice the present moment.
0:38:56 - (Marcia):
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thomas Telfer, law professor, author, and editor of the book the right not to remain silent the truth about mental health and legal profession. I hope that everybody listens to this episode, maybe listen more than once, share it with somebody you know, whether they're in the legal profession or not. Because everything that we talked about with meditation, mindfulness reactions, emotional hijacking, emotional intelligence is going to be relevant to everybody that you know. So please share this episode. Please subscribe to the podcast and please make sure you pick up a copy of the book, which again, we'll have link to it in the show notes. It's not just for lawyers, even though it talks about the legal profession.
0:39:37 - (Marcia):
Thanks again, Thomas, for being with us.
0:39:39 - (Thomas): Thank you very much.
