TRANSCRIPT
Marcia Narine Weldon (00:01)
This may be one of the most important podcast episodes I ever do. And let me tell you why. But at first, I'm going to give you a warning because this episode deals with the causes of suicide and what we can do as everyday people to help people who are struggling. You very likely know someone who has thought about suicide. If you don't know somebody, one of your friends or family do. So please listen and share this episode. And before I introduce our guest, here's some sobering statistics.
Suicide is the 11th leading cause of death in the United States. In 2022, almost 50 ,000 Americans died by suicide. In 2022, there were an estimated 1 .6 million suicide attempts. In 2021, 12 .3 million American adults seriously considered it. In 2021, suicide was among the ninth leading cause of death.
for people ages 10 to 64. And the second leading cause of death for people ages 10 to 14 and 20 to 34. 10 % of youth in grades nine through 12 reported they had made at least one suicide attempt in the past 12 months. And females attempted almost twice as often as males. So with that context, I wanna introduce someone who's an expert, not by her choice, but by experience, Jenny Thrasher. She's the author of Growing Through Grief. She's a speaker.
a mental health educator, and she's the founder of All That We Are. So thank you, Jenny, for joining us.
Jenny Thrasher (01:28)
Thank you, Marcia, for having me. Before we get started, can we take a moment just to acknowledge those statistics? I'm honestly, I'm covered in goosebumps just listening to it and really taking it in and recognizing the depth in which this is impacting us. And that's just here, right? That's just here in the US. And I know I've done a lot of work globally and the numbers are astounding.
If it's OK with you, I would like to take a moment where a lot of times when I'm giving a talk, it's one of those like, let's start with doing some breath work and just get grounded for a second and just take a nice deep breath in. So if everyone who's here with us, just take a nice deep breath in.
Marcia Narine Weldon (02:10)
Absolutely.
Jenny Thrasher (02:18)
Hold it for just a second and then release that breath. Nice, slow, deep breath out. All right, feel our bodies relaxing, able to receive because I promise you that while this is a topic that can be heavy, it can be intense, it's also a topic that I'm extremely passionate to talk about, that I'm excited to talk about. And I walk this fine line.
whenever I'm having this conversation because while I know the heaviness is there, I also know the excitement because every chance I get to talk about this means that I'm in a position to support someone who's going through it. It is an absolute gift to be able to share my experiences, the lessons I've learned, the research that I've done so that others can heal, grow, and thrive.
And so one of the things I also want to say is that as we go through this conversation, if at any point someone, whether you're on here live with us or not, if you're listening and you start to feel those emotions bubbling up, because maybe this does hit close to home, whether you've lost someone or not, nearly everyone's gone through some sort of trauma, some sort of heartache. So if you feel those emotions coming up, I'd like to encourage you to feel them.
I give you permission, I invite you to allow yourself to feel those emotions. And what I'd like you to do is just imagine right here, right here in your chest, that there's a nice window to your soul and you're just gonna let those emotions flow out, right? You can name them or you can cry or you can simply see them leaving your body. And what I'd like you to do is imagine as those emotions flow out, that they are alchemizing into healing energy that are going to support you.
and the people around you. So anytime you start to feel the emotion, rather than stuffing it down and saying, like, no, not right now, not right now, let yourself feel it. This is the space that we are creating here, the safe space. And if you are in a space where you can allow yourself to feel it, please do. And I promise you'll leave here feeling more empowered.
Marcia Narine Weldon (04:18)
Right.
I think it
And I would add that if you are driving and listening to this, the conversation may bring up emotions that you don't even realize that you have. So you may want to listen to this at another time. Similarly, if you have young kids in the car, if you don't think that this is a conversation they should hear, we definitely want you to listen to it. And this information will also help you as you deal with your own kids. And, you know, Jenny, I don't know if I told you this, my son lost his first friend to suicide at age 12.
and the guilt that my son felt that I think that, you know, still affects him to this day, was that, you know, he didn't know anything was wrong. Why didn't his friend come to him? Why didn't his friend say anything to him? What could he have done? And that has led him to be an adult that is always looking at after everybody else's needs, sometimes even before his own, because I think he lives with that. And by the time he was 21, he had lost several more, to either suicide or attempted suicide.
Jenny Thrasher (05:25)
Hmm.
Marcia Narine Weldon (05:35)
So this is something that is very, very serious. And that's why I say that even if you say, well, I don't know anybody, at some point you may know, or at some point your kids or family members or colleagues may come up to you and say, how do we address this? And in the field that I'm in, in the legal field, we have a very, very high rate of serious mental well -being, mental health issues, and also a skyrocketing rate of people who
Jenny Thrasher (05:50)
Right.
Mm.
Marcia Narine Weldon (06:03)
take their own lives or attempt to take their own lives. So for my lawyers who are listening, this is also really important for you. Now, you have some personal connections, starting with losing your father. And how did this affect you at the time? And how does it affect you all these years later? Because that is the catalyst for your life's work.
Jenny Thrasher (06:23)
Absolutely, absolutely. So before I even talk about how his death affected me, let me start by telling you that my dad was my world. I was 20 years old and everything that I had ever done had been with the focus of making him proud. And my dad asked for help. You know, I think that was one of the hardest things was, you know, a lot of people say, well, men never ask for help.
It's a silent killer. Well, in 1998, it was November of 1998, my dad actually went to his boss and asked for help. And his boss didn't know how to help him. He didn't know how to talk about it. But what I will say is that he did the best he could with the tools that he had. And he organized a meeting that involved my dad's boss's boss, a member from Human Resources, a representative from their insurance company.
and the psychiatrist that my dad had been working with. And while they all met, they asked my parents to wait in the hallway. And they then made decisions on what they thought was in my dad's best interest as well as the best interest of the company. And when I lost my dad, I was full of rage and anger and heartache, but never at my dad.
Marcia Narine Weldon (07:22)
Wow.
Jenny Thrasher (07:44)
I never once blamed him. I feel like I'm one of the few, I think a lot of people over the years, it's now been 25 years since I lost my dad. And most people I meet go through an angry phase. And that anger is at the person they lost. For me, I never experienced that because from the moment he died, my thought was how did I not realize how much pain he was in?
Marcia Narine Weldon (07:49)
Yes.
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (08:10)
You know, it didn't make sense to me that the stigma associated with suicide, that's not who my dad was. So when he died, I was angry at his company. I was angry at myself. I was angry at God. I was angry beyond angry at my mom, you know, and, and over time and what I, what I learned is time does not heal all wounds. It's what we do with that time.
that is going to determine how and when we heal. But healing is possible. And part of that healing is forgiveness. It is letting go of these emotions. And I'd say anger is one of those toxic emotions that can eat us up. But the one that I think is the most toxic is bitterness. And so being able to let those go and focus in on finding the good.
Marcia Narine Weldon (09:01)
Absolutely.
Jenny Thrasher (09:08)
And for me, that's what I did. I was determined to understand what caused him to die and how to navigate it. So I went back to my teachers. I'm getting my degree in psychology. I go, I returned to school. And I simply let them know that he had died, that I needed to understand what happened, and that I was not OK.
Marcia Narine Weldon (09:30)
Now, there's so much there to unpack. One of the things you mentioned was that you were not angry at your dad, and many times people are. And I think sometimes people are angry at the person because they say, you gave up, or you had other choices. You could have done this. You could have done that. And I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about what gets somebody
to the point where they even consider taking their own life. So how does that play into why there is that anger and bitterness toward the person? And is that anger and bitterness really toward the person or do you think part of it is toward themselves because I didn't catch it, I didn't see it? What was I missing?
Jenny Thrasher (10:17)
Hmm. I mean, I definitely would say in the last four years, I went through my own journey, spiritual awakening, got a divorce, went through a lot, learned a lot. I do not believe we can feel anything for another person if we don't first feel it for ourselves. So I do think there is always some projection.
Marcia Narine Weldon (10:40)
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (10:42)
But what I'd like to do is take a moment and talk about the stigma. And in doing so, let's talk about language. And if it's OK with you, to share language that we can use that is going to help end the stigma versus language that perpetuates it. Are you good with that? OK. So whenever I meet someone who's talking about suicide, one of the things that I do is I listen carefully to the way they talk about it. And the fact is that many of us, in fact,
Marcia Narine Weldon (10:46)
Mm -hmm.
Absolutely.
Jenny Thrasher (11:12)
Many advocates and mental health professionals speak about mental health in a way that perpetuates the very stigma they are trying to end simply because they are unaware. So in no way am I ever trying to shame anyone or say, you did this wrong. No. And when people are sharing their story with me or they're sharing their experiences, I don't stop them and go, no, no, no, no, no, we don't talk like that. But I will say, hey, is it OK if we talk about words in the way that they affect us?
And so one of the things that I point out to people is a lesson that I learned many years ago. In fact, it was shortly after my dad died, which is that most of us are unaware that it is actually the words that we're using or that we're hearing that impacts the way we're feeling, which then impacts the way we think, which will then determine if we are reacting to a situation or if we are responding.
Right. So I worked with an amazing psychologist who helped me navigate some very difficult moments after my dad died when people use terms like successful suicide and or a failed attempt. And I was like, what? Like, why would you put those words together? You know, and he helped me to understand this, that people just simply are unaware of the of the power that these words have. And one thing that we really want to be aware of is that when we are reacting,
which most people react to mental health challenges. When we are reacting, we are acting from a place of uncertainty, fear, judgment, and a need to control. When we are responding, we are acting from a place of love, compassion, understanding, and a desire to support.
Marcia Narine Weldon (12:41)
Right.
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (13:04)
And there's a big difference there. And so one of the things that I'm always focused on is teaching people how we can better respond to situations. And it's not something that just happens overnight. I mean, I've been doing this for 25 years. However, I didn't really have anyone teaching me all of the things that I was learning. So I don't think it should take anyone else 25 years to learn all of this. But one of the things we really want to be aware of is what is the stigma?
Marcia Narine Weldon (13:14)
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (13:31)
What is the stigma? Because when I ask that question globally, when I ask that question, the number one answer I get is that the stigma is shame. However, that's not the stigma. Shame is the result of the stigma. The actual stigma is the idea or belief that an individual who is going through mental health challenges, who has attempted suicide or died by suicide is selfish.
that they're weak, they're being vindictive, that they were simply a bad person, or that they were broken. At the heart of every single one of those, it is the idea that the person is choosing to be this way, or that they have chosen to die. So if we understand that that is the heart of the stigma, is the idea that this is a choice.
Marcia Narine Weldon (14:20)
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (14:31)
It's so important that we're aware of the language we're using if we truly want to end the stigma. So not only are we going to avoid the statement that is commonly avoided by most people, right? The statement of committed suicide. So many people over the last 10 years have stopped using the phrase committed suicide, not because of the reasons I just told you, but because of the association between committed suicide and committing a crime.
Marcia Narine Weldon (14:43)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm. Okay.
Jenny Thrasher (15:01)
OK, they don't even make the connection that this is really committing is making the choice. I am choosing this path. OK, so the other language that we would that I would encourage people to remove from our language, our sentence structure, I'm blanking right now, but but the the the phrases that I would remove that that I'd like to at least raise your awareness.
Marcia Narine Weldon (15:07)
Right.
It's okay.
Jenny Thrasher (15:28)
to the fact that they perpetuate the stigma of choice is the statement, he took his own life or he killed himself. Okay? So you'll never hear me say that. You'll never hear me say that my dad took his own life or that he killed himself. What you will hear me say is I lost my dad to suicide or my dad died from suicide.
Marcia Narine Weldon (15:54)
So tell me why that sentence structure is so important to you as a family member who lost someone to suicide and to people who may not say, I don't really get the distinction. What are you trying to, like, why are you parsing all these words?
Jenny Thrasher (16:02)
Mm.
They're like, semantics. And why are you policing me? That's what I get a lot is, are we going to make this politically correct too? No. And in fact, I don't police anyone. As I said, when I'm having conversations, I never say to someone, you can't say that. No. Everyone's on their own journey. I simply raise their awareness to the fact that words impact the way we move forward. OK?
Marcia Narine Weldon (16:13)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Thrasher (16:34)
So if you are moving forward with a desire to heal, then I want you to reflect on this. If I were to say, my dad killed himself and I'm still really struggling with the aftermath, versus I lost my dad to suicide and I'm still really struggling with the aftermath.
Okay, my dad was taken from me. And it doesn't mean that there isn't pain there, but a level of the pain that so many people feel when they've lost someone to suicide is that the person chose it. Right? So that anger, that judgment, and even for the people who don't believe that their loved one chose it because they're like, no, my loved one would never choose that. Right? This was a bad situation that only got worse.
They were misunderstood or they weren't communicating and we didn't know. They didn't know how to get help. We didn't know how to help them. But they're continuing to say he took his own life. Something inside of them still very much is holding on to this idea that their loved one chose this path. And over the years, I have never believed that my dad chose this path, not once. And I've been able to work with so many people that
that if they lost someone to suicide have called me or sent me an email and said, just by simply changing my language, it changed how I was moving forward. It changed how I felt about the person I lost.
Marcia Narine Weldon (18:16)
very, very impactful. And I think it's important because words have a lot of power. And what we say to ourselves, what we say out loud, or what we're saying subconsciously can definitely impact us because there's books, the body keeps the score, right? You keep all of that inside of you, that you talked about, that rage, that unforgiveness, that also has health ramifications as well. And so it is really important to focus on the language. But I want to get to the step back a little bit and talk about what causes somebody,
Jenny Thrasher (18:20)
I do.
Yeah.
It does.
What? Yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (18:46)
you are an expert in this area, you know, you've indicated there's kind of three things that often come up when someone is in that position where things are so hopeless for them. What are those three things that we should be looking out for?
Jenny Thrasher (18:46)
Yeah.
No.
Yeah. There are three factors. There are three factors that when we experience these three factors, it puts us at the greatest risk of attempting or dying from suicide. And I do want to say that, but before I do, I'm feeling it feels really strong on me to make sure that we address for those who have attempted suicide. And when I say that this is not a choice and I get a lot of people who say, no, no, no, but I made that choice.
I attempted suicide, it was my choice. Or maybe they are the family member of someone who attempted suicide and they'll say, nope, it was their choice, I know it was. Here's what I'd like everyone to understand before we go into the three factors is when a person gets the point that they are having thoughts of suicide or they are experiencing suicidal ideation, which are two different things.
Most of us have experienced thoughts of suicide and I would say a lot of us have even experienced being suicidal. And the difference is that thoughts of suicide can be fleeting. They can come and go. It can be as simple as I don't want to be here. I can't do this. Right. So we're not actively thinking, I am suicidal or I'm having thoughts of suicide. But if you really think back to the last time you were really, really angry, really hurt, those are common thoughts that we have is I'm done.
I don't want to do this anymore, right? Being actively suicidal is when we are actively thinking of ways to die, not because we're choosing to, but because a part of our brain is telling us all the ways that we could die. And I have lived through this myself on multiple occasions. And I have never been scared of anyone in my life as much as I was of myself the first time I became actively suicidal. And I didn't know how to communicate it, even though I was a trained crisis counselor and a public educator on suicide prevention.
So that's a lot of what we're going to talk about today is how are we communicating with people and how are we getting the help that we need. So before we go there though, I just want to say that when I have someone reach out to me and they're challenging this idea of is it a choice or is it not, and I always say healthy people do not die from suicide. And I had one gentleman who kept messaging me, we have to talk, we have to talk. And we got on a call and he said, hey Jenny,
I love everything that you're doing, but there's just this one thing you're getting wrong. And I said, yeah, what's that? And he said, well, this idea that it's not a choice, because I'm an attempt survivor and it was my choice, I made the choice. And I said, okay, would you share your story with me? And so he did. He told me his story. He told me about the situation leading up to his attempt. He told me about the attempt, his recovery, and I thanked him. And then I said,
Can I ask you a couple of questions? And he said, absolutely. I said, first question. Do you consider yourself to be healthy today? And he said, yes. Yes, of course I do. That's why I'm doing this work, is to help people know that healing's possible. And especially for men, I want them to know it's OK to ask for help. I said, perfect. OK, second question. Knowing you're healthy today, would you choose to die from suicide? And I heard him.
He's ready to answer. And then it was like I could hear my question replaying through his head. And he said, no, I wouldn't.
And now I've had this conversation with lots of advocates over the years, but this one, the way that it varied was he said, would you come here to New York and teach my community what you just taught me? Because healthy people do not die from suicide.
Marcia Narine Weldon (22:43)
And I want people to really hear that, you know, because it's, I've said it a couple of times publicly, but not very often. I have also been to the point where I didn't just think about it, where I was literally spending days researching how, you know, and I don't want to get into too much detail because I want to be sensitive, but there is, you know, I mean, the amount of research I did was like I was studying for the bar exam, right? And I say it in a very cavalier way right now because I'm healthy.
Jenny Thrasher (22:57)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (23:13)
Back then, it was so serious. So what would happen with the life insurance? Like, I had a whole plan. I had the letters written out because I was in such a depth of despair where I was like, what if I moved to this place? Because I'm an over -thinker, so I had to even overthink how this would happen. But there's no way I would have that conversation in my head for more than five seconds and would just brush it off like ridiculous. But back then in those depths, you know?
Jenny Thrasher (23:26)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (23:43)
And it's funny, and I'll say this, around the time that it happened, I was in a very tough time, my marriage. I actually, when I, and I was never gonna go skydiving. I find something, yeah, I'm gonna go skydiving, but not because I was suicidal, but because I didn't care. I had no fear if something would happen to me. And that was the time when I was doing all that research. I wasn't like, I hope the parachute doesn't work. That's not what I was thinking. But I was like, and I'm terrified of heights, right? So.
Jenny Thrasher (23:57)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Mm -hmm.
Marcia Narine Weldon (24:10)
But now those thoughts would never come to me. And so it's really important because the way you phrase it, that's how it clicked to me. And that's how I also started thinking of, I didn't feel like I had a choice. Like there was something that was taking over what I was thinking, that it wasn't who I am today. The person I am today would not be in that state. I'm not saying it could never happen again.
Jenny Thrasher (24:18)
Mm -hmm.
Yep.
And right, right. And that's the thing. I meet people all the time that will say, well, my child, you know, like if I did an event that was around youth suicide prevention and I don't have to worry about that for my child, I came because I'm worried about some of her friends or I don't have to worry about that for me. Well, for those of us who can remember the 1980s, that's like saying, well, I'll never get HIV or my loved one will never get HIV, you know. And the thing is, it can happen.
Marcia Narine Weldon (24:59)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Thrasher (25:03)
Right? It can happen because any one of us can experience these three factors at one time. And especially if we have not been trained to look for them, if we are not aware that we can actually intervene on our own behalf, then we are going to be at risk. And I say this again, as someone who was trained in this in two different states, I was trained in California and Minnesota after getting my degree in psychology.
And yet I went through post -war depression and I became suicidal. I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know how to say to anyone, I'm scared of myself. I'm scared to go in the kitchen. I'm scared to drive my car. I'm scared to go in the bathroom. And the way that I describe it in my book, Growing Through Grief, was that it was like I had two brains. I had my healthy brain that would say, get out of bed, take care of the baby.
eat, take a shower, you know, go for a walk. And then I had my suicidal brain that was constantly telling me how I could die, you know, just constant nonstop. And the problem was that as it went on, my healthy brain got quieter and quieter and my suicidal brain got louder and louder. And I can tell you that this is where I'm fortunate. I'm fortunate that I had the right people in my life at the right time.
And that one day, my now ex -husband, but at the time my husband walks in, finds me sitting in the dark holding our daughter, our daughter who was the only reason I was alive at that point. I was scared to put her down because she was keeping me alive. And he simply asked me what was going on and I said, I'm scared I'm gonna die. And this is where I can tell you now, in that moment I didn't realize it, but now I can tell you my dad's death saved my life.
You know, because my ex -husband, he understood what I was saying. He knew to take me serious. And he also knew what had helped me after my dad died when I had begun having panic attacks and was shutting down. And so he'd not only said, hey, let's get you back into acupuncture. All right. Cause that's what had helped me after my dad died. He actually set up the appointments for me. He actually went and did the work to come home once a week and take care of our daughter.
knowing that I was barely functioning. Like quite literally, I was barely functioning. And so I am grateful to this day and I always will be for the way that he took care of me during that time and the way that he recognized what my needs were and how to help me, you know.
Marcia Narine Weldon (27:47)
So what are those three things we should be looking for? Because we haven't yet said them. And I think the three factors are really important for people listening because we might have heard this expression, check on your strong friend, right? And there are people who may look like they've got it all together back when I had those thoughts and I've had them more than once, right? It was nobody would have thought that on the outside. And partly because
Jenny Thrasher (27:49)
Yep. Now you know, I said the three factors.
Mm -hmm.
Marcia Narine Weldon (28:16)
I was isolating. I know that's one of the issues. Let's go through the three factors.
Jenny Thrasher (28:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the three factors are number one, extreme distress. Okay. Two is isolation and three is a shift in belief. And so I'd like to break those down because while they may seem obvious, there's more depth to them than what's on the surface level. So with extreme distress, many people would think divorce, job loss, death in the family.
However, when someone's mental health is compromised, which can be from having a cold, we can experience mental health fatigue from lack of sleep, from having a cold, from having the flu. In that moment, our mental health is compromised. At that point, any type of distress that to the average person would seem like nothing could be significant to someone. So then you go, OK, well, how am I supposed to know if they're going through extreme distress?
They're going to show up in two ways. It's either going to be that they are fixated on one problem as being the biggest problem ever or everything is a problem. Either way, what you're going to see is a fixation on the negative. And especially if this is out of character. So if you notice someone who suddenly is just like whenever you talk to them, it's just negative, negative, negative. For me, had I known to look for this,
I would have realized that my dad was going through extreme distress because I was there in person visiting back in Texas. And for three days straight, he kept talking about getting a bad haircut. And I just kept saying, dad, you've had the same haircut my whole life, right? It doesn't look any different. Like I just was like, what are you talking about? But the thing is that when someone's at that point, oftentimes they don't know how to communicate what they're feeling.
And sometimes they don't even know why. So even if they said, I feel suicidal or I'm having thoughts of suicide. And then what is the number one response? But why? But why? What's the matter with you? What's wrong? Okay, I'm just going to ask everyone in this moment, please take it in. That's not how to respond to someone when they say that they're suicidal. Okay. Isn't to jump into why isn't to jump into what happened, not into fix it mode, simply love them.
In that moment, if someone is brave enough to tell you that they are having thoughts of suicide or feeling suicidal, simply love them. And then after that, you can ask, would you like to talk about it more? Would you like to explore possibilities? OK. But what they need more than anything, first and foremost, is to know that they are loved. And we're going to get to that. So it's why it's so important. Now let's look at isolation.
We all experienced isolation during 2020, some of us more than others. And for some of us, really enjoyed it, right? I personally did not. I like my people. Marcia, you know this. I like to be around my people. I found isolation extremely difficult. But here's what we want to know about isolation is it is not simply a person spending time alone. OK? In fact,
Marcia Narine Weldon (31:22)
I know you do.
Jenny Thrasher (31:37)
Some of the most extreme isolation can be when we're surrounded by people, but we're not able to communicate what we're thinking, what we're feeling, what we're experiencing out of fear of being judged, shamed, or ridiculed. One of the things that we want to pay attention to is, is this person, whether they're alone or with us, what is their energy like? Are they engaging or are they withdrawing? Are they shutting down? All right, so my younger daughter, she loves...
her alone time. I mean, loves it. So I can't think every time she wants to go spend time alone, she's suicidal. No, no. But what I can pay attention to is has her behavior changed in the way that she's going to spend time alone? Does she seem a little bit different? And then just as I was saying, like when someone's going through something, don't just simply say what's wrong or why.
If we notice a shift in someone's behavior, if they seem to be in distress or they seem to be isolating themselves, rather than simply going to them and saying, hey, what's going on? You're normally such a fun person. Like, hey, Marcia, you're normally so much fun. What's wrong with you? Why aren't you being fun? Why aren't you talking? Is that going to create a space for you to open up and say, well, actually, here's where I'm at?
Marcia Narine Weldon (32:46)
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (32:57)
So I sat with my daughter, recognizing that I didn't want to be a helicopter mom, but I also didn't want to seem like I was completely void of any kind of awareness either. And so I had a conversation with her and I said, how would you like for me to communicate to you if I notice a shift in your behavior? And I want to check in, but I don't want to assume that something's wrong. And after our conversation, what we agreed to was that whenever I say to her, hey,
Is there anything you'd like to talk about? That was code for, I've noticed a shift. I'm not assuming anything's wrong, but I am paying attention. Right? And in fact, that brings me to another quick point that a lot of times we find ourselves worrying about people. And we might even think that if we tell someone, I'm worried about you, that that's a sign of love. I'm going to invite you to take a moment to think about what you're really saying when you say, I'm worried about you.
What you're saying is, I don't believe you can figure this out. So rather than saying, I'm worried about you, I invite you to explore things like, I'm paying attention. I've observed this shift in your behavior. I've observed this difference in the way you're showing up.
I'm paying attention. I'm noticing, right? You matter to me.
Marcia Narine Weldon (34:28)
That's a really important reframe. And I know you also have, and we'll put links to your site, you have a page about how to have some of these conversations. And we'll talk a little bit later about how to tell your story in a way that is helpful and empowering to people. But the language is really important because I have made every single mistake that you've talked about for the past 34 minutes. So and I'll probably make them again later, but at least if you're aware, you know better, you do better.
Jenny Thrasher (34:49)
It's a -
There you go. It's about raising awareness. Like I said, this for me, it's not about policing and it's definitely not about bringing shame on anyone. And I didn't learn these on my own. I learned them through experiences. You said at the very beginning, my area of expertise in this doesn't come from just sitting and reading a book. This has been living it, losing my dad, going through my own challenges, almost losing my daughter.
Mm -hmm.
Marcia Narine Weldon (35:15)
And I want to talk about that, right? Because if we're, let's go to faction number three. And then I want to talk about your daughter.
Jenny Thrasher (35:17)
We should go, before we forget though, yeah. Yeah, okay. So factor number three, that shift in belief. I believe that we are born with the belief that this world is good, that we are perfect and that we are deeply loved. And as we go through life, we face different challenges that can make us start to question those beliefs. Those are our core innate beliefs that are deep within us.
But we begin to question them. Now, when it becomes dangerous is when we get to the point where we are no longer simply questioning them, our belief turns into a false belief, which is this world is no good. There is only pain. I am unworthy of love. I am a burden on the people around me. Nobody needs me. Nobody wants me. So when we start to believe those things and you combine it with the isolation,
and the extreme distress is when someone is at the greatest risk for suicide. And, you know, as I mentioned earlier, when I went through my own challenges now 20 years ago, that I honestly thought I was so bad off that I couldn't do anything to help myself. But I now realize that that's not true. It's just that what I had been taught, what I'd been trained in and what I was training others in,
wasn't working. Because now when I approach it with the knowledge that I have after living this and doing this for so long, I know how to pull myself out of it. And a lot of it is that awareness piece, right? Paying attention to am I going through extreme distress? Okay, if I am, who do I reach out to? Who can I talk to about this? Do I feel like I'm starting to pull away from people? Am I isolating? Well, if I have the awareness that I am and that that could put me in danger, who am I going to reach out to?
Are my beliefs shifting? Who am I going to reach out to? And one of the things that I do to keep myself safe is that on my phone, I have saved next to certain people's names a little emoji that is the smiley face covered in hearts. They are my safe people. That way, if I'm ever in a moment of distress, because when we're in a moment of distress, we are not thinking clearly. So if I'm in that moment,
Marcia Narine Weldon (37:39)
Absolutely.
Jenny Thrasher (37:42)
And especially if I'm new to this, right? I've been doing this for a long time and I've learned how to navigate it pretty well. But even then, there's still times where I reach out to someone. It makes it so much easier to remember who I can reach out to when I put that emoji. That's all I have to remember. That smiley face with the hearts. I put that in my search and my contacts and boom, my list of people, my safe people pop up and that's who I can message.
Marcia Narine Weldon (38:07)
Wow.
Jenny Thrasher (38:09)
And as I mentioned that with my daughter, what we say is, is there anything you want to talk about? With my friends, the code is, I didn't make my bed today, or I didn't feel like making my bed today. Because I realized a couple of years ago that when I am at my worst, I don't make my bed. And I shared this with a friend of mine, and she said, hey, Jenny, the next time that you can't make your bed, just let me know.
And I want to remind you that in this moment, if I send that message or receive that message, it isn't a time to dive in and say, well, what's wrong? How can I fix it? How can I support you? That is a time to pour love into the other person.
Marcia Narine Weldon (38:52)
So how do you do that without saying, how can I support you? Because some people see already making more mistakes, right? Who'd be saying, okay, I don't want to say what's wrong. I'll say, how can I support you? Why is that not the best thing to do?
Jenny Thrasher (38:57)
No, it's okay.
Yeah. So when you say how can it's not that it's a bad thing if you say, how can I support you? Because you are saying, I'm like, I don't know what to do. When someone is at that point, whether they're whether they're going through grief because they've they've lost a job or relationship, they've lost a loved one, you name it. Right. Death comes in many forms. And when someone's going through grief, one of the hardest things is to tell people what you need.
We're not trained to do this. We're not raised to be like, I have needs. Here's what they are. Like, even when we're healthy, even when we're healthy, how often do we say, here's my boundaries. Here's what I need to remain healthy. So now imagine I've just gone through a loss or I'm feeling suicidal and I'm supposed to tell you what I need. Like, ugh. Like, I can't. And I used to say to people, look, as long as you're approaching someone from a place of love, there is no right or wrong thing to say.
Marcia Narine Weldon (39:38)
Right, it's true, it's true.
You're right.
Jenny Thrasher (40:02)
But we have to remember that they're not always going to receive us the way that we intended, right? So like right after my dad died, I walked into my parents' house. It was my first time back at their house and I walk in the door and a man walks up to me and I kind of recognized him from my childhood, but I wasn't entirely sure who he was, but he hugged me and in that moment he said, your dad didn't go to hell. And I.
I mean I was about ready to hit this man. Okay and I, here's the thing Marcia, I was angry at him for 15 years. For 15 years I was angry at him and then I gave my book, like before it had become a book, I gave it to a really good friend of mine who I had grown up with who's now both a minister and a psychologist and I gave it to her and said would you please read this and let me know what you think.
Marcia Narine Weldon (40:35)
That's the kind of thing somebody in my family would say, by the way. Whole bunch of Catholics. Yeah.
Jenny Thrasher (41:00)
And we were talking through the different parts and I was sharing with her about this particular man and how angry it made me and how like, why don't we teach people how to respond? And she said, you know, Jenny, I guarantee you that in that moment, he thought he was doing the right thing. In that moment, that was the best that he had. So while I encourage people that if you're gonna reach out to someone from a place of love,
Marcia Narine Weldon (41:17)
Exactly.
Jenny Thrasher (41:26)
I'm also going to encourage everyone that's listening right now. Again, this is about raising awareness. And once we raise awareness, we're more in tune. When we are in that place of pain and someone reaches out to us, remember to receive them from a place of love, the best that you can. OK? And that no one take anything personal in this moment. I mean, I've learned through Zen and Buddha not to take anything personal ever, working on it still.
But especially when you see that another person's in pain, be the stability that they need in that moment. Be the anchor and say, okay, they're hurting. I'm going to do my best to stay calm. And if I can't stay calm in their presence, I'm going to step away for a few minutes. But one of the things that was said to me that changed my world was in 2022, while I was on a trip, I was actually at a wellness festival.
Marcia Narine Weldon (41:57)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Thrasher (42:22)
And this was like day five and we had taken a bus. We were in Jordan and had been staying at the Dead Sea and we took a bus to go see Petra. And as we were driving back, I'm sitting on this bus. I'm reflecting on my life and everything that's been going on. And our bus was fairly empty and I was sitting at the back curled up in a ball and a tear just streams down my cheek.
And I've got my eyes closed. And the next thing I know, I feel a hand on my hand. And the guy sitting in front of me, he's just holding my hand. Okay? Next thing I know, I am being picked up and scooted over. And I've got an arm around me. And now this person has picked me up, this other guy, he's holding my other hand. And he said the most beautiful thing I think I've ever heard. He said,
We've got you, Jenny. You're safe. You can let it out.
He didn't ask me what was wrong. He didn't ask me how he could help. He didn't try to fix me. And the thing was, in that moment, at first, I just was like, I don't even know why I was crying. It was just tear. Well, then I started sobbing. I mean, sobbing. But here is the beautiful thing. Those sobs turned into laughter because I suddenly became very aware of the fact that both of my hands were being held by two different men and that I had a massive amount of snot pouring down my face.
Marcia Narine Weldon (43:40)
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (43:55)
And so I was like, my God, what do I do? And I barely know these people, right? Like we've been in the same space for five days, but they weren't people I knew well. But in any case, I finally was like, hey guys, this is really beautiful. But could one of you please let me have my hand back so I can wipe my nose? Yeah, too much to worry. So, but yeah, so, you know, it's this don't get caught up in necessarily saying the perfect thing. We are all human.
Marcia Narine Weldon (44:11)
Too much support right now.
Jenny Thrasher (44:23)
approach people from a place of love. And remember that if they don't receive you from a place of love, they are hurting and you can try again later. One of the things that also happened that I want to share because I think it'll give people context and how you can use these three factors to help someone you might be worried about. Yeah, so I'm actually going to repeat them in this story. Okay. Okay. So let's say no one's reached out to you, but you notice
Marcia Narine Weldon (44:41)
and repeat the three factors again one more time.
Okay, perfect.
Jenny Thrasher (44:52)
something different, right? So in February, 2021, I received a phone call from a very good friend of mine and it's about 10 o 'clock at night. And he says to me, he says, hey, Jenny, you taught me the three factors that put someone at the greatest risk for suicide. And I'm worried about you.
He said, I know that you're going through extreme distress right now because of your divorce. I haven't heard from you in almost two weeks, which makes me think that you're isolating yourself. So tell me, in this moment, what are you thinking? What do you believe?
Now, he's someone I love dearly. He's one of my closest friends, but he'd been going through his own challenges. So he wasn't someone I would have reached out to to say, I'm not OK. But in that moment, he was such an incredible source of stability who approached me from such a place of love, compassion, and understanding that I said to him, I'm not OK. I don't even think my girls need me at this point.
And he said, do you want me to come over? I said, no, no, no, no. It's late. And he lived about 30 minutes away. And he said, OK. Then we're going to stay on the phone. And that's what we did is we stayed on the phone and we talked. And the thing was, I was going through this divorce and not wanting to talk about it because I didn't want my friends to feel like they had to choose because it was an amicable divorce. But even amicable divorces,
I had no idea I'd been with him since I was 18 years old. And now all of a sudden, it's now 23 years later, and my whole world has just flipped upside down. I don't have anyone to talk to. It was isolating. It was lonely. It was terrifying. And he gave me a space, a safe space, where he gave me permission to talk about whatever I wanted to talk about. And so we did. And by the time we hung up the phone,
He had pulled me out of my isolation, had pulled me, alleviated my distress. And by doing those two things, he brought me back to center so that I knew that my girls needed me. It's that simple.
Marcia Narine Weldon (47:06)
Let's take a look.
So we're thinking extreme distress, isolation, and shift in belief. And you've talked about your struggles. You've talked about your dad's struggles. But your daughter, we talked about, don't know if your girls needed you. Well, clearly they did and you were there for them because your daughter, one of your daughters, when she was 15, you know, went through some real difficulties. How, and if anybody's gonna be prepared to deal with it, that's you, but.
Jenny Thrasher (47:16)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (47:38)
Can anybody really be prepared for the thought of possibly losing their 15 year old daughter? So give us an idea of what happened there to the extent that you are comfortable sharing it and what can parents be thinking about if their daughter comes to them or especially if their daughter doesn't or son doesn't come to them.
Jenny Thrasher (47:38)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
First and foremost, just let me say my thoughts, prayers, and love are with anyone that is listening right now. And again, whether you listen to this in live time or played back, I believe in the power of energy and the power of love. And if you are needing some love right now, please feel this love that I'm sending out and sharing with you because I do know.
I do know what it is to lose someone to go through myself and I know what it is to almost lose someone. And the pain that comes from having a child that you can see all the good, you can see all the possibilities and yet it just seems like nothing is working. And for me it was like, but this is what I do. I teach people about wellness. See, I don't believe in traditional suicide prevention. That's what I was trained in over 20 years ago.
And that is currently what is being used in mainstream suicide prevention approach. It's not working. I teach wellness, right? But my gosh, I almost lost my own daughter. So it's not working. What is happening? And this is where I can tell you. And I also want to say she has given me permission to talk about this. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (49:12)
And I would have assumed so otherwise I would not have asked because I know you've spoken about it a little bit publicly.
Jenny Thrasher (49:18)
Yeah, so, and she has too, she's also given some talks, but as much as it was so painful to go through that time, and as much as my heart hurt as she had attempted suicide and it was brought to my attention, I am grateful because it was a moment for me to recognize what I was doing wrong and I was. I was doing something wrong, so.
while I was doing all the things that I was teaching like go try acupuncture, go try reiki, go work with a naturopathic doctor or a holistic chiropractor and go do blood work. You know, like I was doing all the stuff.
So where did I go wrong? Everything that I was doing was coming from a place of fear. Everything that I was doing was coming from a need to fix her, to fix the situation. So after she came home, after I'd learned that she had attempted, I sat with her and this just came through me. And it was this me saying to her,
Kayleigh, I've realized that my greatest fear isn't that you are going to die. My greatest fear is that you are going to live a life of misery and you're going to seek out drugs and alcohol as a way to self -medicate. Kayleigh, don't get me wrong, I'd be devastated if she died, but even worse, because I've seen it with my siblings, this life of drugs and alcohol. And I said, and I learned a long time ago that making decisions based on fear never ends well, and yet that's all I've been doing.
I've been so scared to come in in the mornings to wake you up or to check on you or to even tell you I love you that I haven't been doing them. I'm not gonna do it anymore. I'm not gonna live this way. I'm no longer going to simply try to keep you alive. I'm going to fight for you to live a life you love.
Everything changed for me. Everything changed. For her, it took time. It took time. And it was about six months later that we were on a plane. We were flying for her to give a talk on this. And I asked her if she remembered that conversation. And she goes like, yeah, you really pissed me off. I was like, what? What do you mean? I was pouring my heart out to you. And she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah. But mom.
Marcia Narine Weldon (51:45)
You
Jenny Thrasher (51:51)
You know better than anyone when someone's in that much pain, they don't hear what you're saying. They hear what they are feeling. And all, yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (52:01)
I need you to say that, I need you to say that again, because that's might be the most important sentence here, especially for people who'll say, I did everything, I took them to therapist, I did this, I changed their diet, I took them off gluten, whatever it is, you know, because as parents or as friends or as loved ones, we will do anything to help someone we think is suffering because we want to help alleviate that.
Jenny Thrasher (52:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So I'm going to actually say it differently. I am not hearing what you're saying. I'm hearing what I'm feeling. OK? So even though I was doing all of this stuff and I was saying all the things, I think I said that not for her, but for me, for me to realize that it was time to shift.
What she was feeling from me in that moment though, anger, frustration, bitterness, doubt, uncertainty, fear, right? Because those were the emotions that were going on inside of me that I had not released, that I had not worked through before I went and sat with her. And some of them naturally are going to come to the surface as I'm sitting with my daughter for the first time, right after I've learned that she attempted.
But we want to be mindful of that. If our emotions are starting to get the best of us, move away. Say, I love you. I need a moment. OK? Step away. It is better for us to step away, get grounded, be composed, be in tune with what we're feeling, because energy is powerful. Emotions are powerful. And when someone is in pain, they are feeling your energy more than they are hearing your words.
Yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (53:52)
Now, you know, it's interesting. And so a lot of believe in stupid questions. Is there a hereditary component to suicide? You have your father who died by suicide, your daughter who attempted, and you who've had the ideations more than once. Is there any kind of evidence about
Jenny Thrasher (54:11)
Yes.
Marcia Narine Weldon (54:17)
about whether there's a hereditary component or is it the pain of losing someone to suicide that leads to the kind of despair, the isolation, the extreme distress, those kinds of things.
Jenny Thrasher (54:30)
So the way that I experience it, the way that I look at it, I'm not a scientist, I'm not even an official researcher. I do a ton of research on my own. But the way that it makes sense to me is that just like any other health condition, because that's really what we need to look at this as, any other health condition, diabetes, blood pressure.
our heart health, our brain health, like all of those things, there are genetic components. That being said, I have been diagnosed with five physical health conditions that were all genetic conditions that some people say, yeah, you're predisposed. It's normal that you'd have it. Okay. Yeah. So between the age of 20 and I think it was 36, roughly, I had been diagnosed with five conditions.
I have reversed them all, all through lifestyle and nutrition. So even though there is a genetic component to it, the way that I look at it is it's meant to raise your awareness. Yes, I have family members who've had high blood pressure. Yes, I have family members who have had cancer. Yes, I have family members who have had mental health challenges that go much deeper than my dad, his mom.
died from suicide, which I didn't learn until much, much later in my life. Her mom before her had a frontal lobotomy during postpartum depression because that's how they handled that back then, right? So yes, there is absolutely a genetic component to this. Or you could also look at it as, of course I'm gonna blink now, the, Marcia, it's the,
Shoot, we're going to have to come back to it. I can't believe I'm blanking on it. But yes, yes, the epigenetics that can be passed down as well, right? So yes, I believe in all of that. However, while no one chooses to go through mental health challenges, no one chooses to become suicidal or to act on it, we can choose to fight for a life we love, right? So.
Marcia Narine Weldon (56:25)
Is it, you're thinking of epigenetics?
Jenny Thrasher (56:50)
Every day you can make decisions around your self care, right? There are three types of self care and most people have no idea, but we have our daily routine self care. We have indulgent self care. That's my favorite. And then we have responsive self care, which is how are we taking ourselves during moments of crisis? Okay. So all of those things are going to affect us.
Now, one of the things that I also like to talk about, like beyond genetics and that the role that it plays, but is this idea that suicide is contagious, the contagion effect. I do not believe that suicide is contagious. And I will say that in every direction because I do not believe it's like strep throat. Okay. What I do think is contagious is that shift in belief.
So that's why when Robin Williams died, we saw several other people dying and people were like, it's the contagion effect. And it's like, no, it's not that. It's not because it's contagious. It's because someone looks at a situation or a person like Robin Williams and says, well, if he couldn't do it, how can I? He had everything, not knowing really everything that was going on, right?
Marcia Narine Weldon (58:06)
Exactly.
Jenny Thrasher (58:09)
So then you have a person who looks up to someone or sees them as having everything and then this idea of like, well, if they couldn't make it in this world, how could I? And that's what's contagious. And that's what we want to pay attention to. And that is why also the power of love is so very important. Because as I was saying before, that shift in belief includes the idea that we are unworthy of love. And I always let people know.
It does not matter if you are a man living in New York City and you are beyond wealthy or you are a woman living in California and you are homeless. The one thing that they have in common when they get to that point of being suicidal is that feeling of being unworthy of love. And I remember having a conversation with a male advocate out of the UK at one point and he said, no, no, no, I've been doing this.
I've never heard a man say that he didn't feel loved and that's why he attempted suicide. And I was like, let's talk about this. He's like, what I hear men say is, well, I lost my job and I didn't feel like I could provide for my family and that was it. And I was like, hmm. And if we go deeper, like they might not consciously be aware of it, but if we go deeper, when they lost their job and couldn't provide for their family, did they feel worthy of love? Right? That is at the core.
And that is why I was saying, if someone reaches out to you in that moment of asking for support or saying that they need support, rather than judging them, rather than questioning them, I'm like, it can't be that bad. Simply love them. That's it. And sometimes we have to love people from a distance. I do want to say that. Sometimes, you know, I've been very fortunate. I have an incredible relationship with both of my daughters. And...
And I was able to support Kaylee to make that transition from suicidal to thriving. And I want to be clear, I supported her. She did the work. And she continues to do the work because she's continuing to surprise me with the ways that she is growing and evolving. And is it on the typical standard American timeline of graduate from high school, go straight to college? And no, she's on her own timeline. And yet it's working out beautifully.
You know, that's one of the things I think that allows us to thrive is to recognize what is it that I as a person need in order to truly thrive and what does thriving look like for me? And I remember the first time I ever said that Kaylee had shifted from suicidal to thriving and I had a few people reach out to me and say, Jenny, if this is what you call thriving, I'm concerned. You know, like she's barely graduating from high school.
And I said, well, I think you and I have different definitions on what it means to thrive. Because I have a daughter whose boyfriend broke up with her. And instead of going and getting drunk, or getting high, or sitting down in her cave in the basement that we like to call it, she came to me and said, I need help. Can I sleep with you tonight? How did you get through this? Or the time that there was a party where her ex -boyfriend now
planned and he invited everyone except for her including her best friends. And she came to me and she not only didn't go do anything to cause harm to herself, which was an old pattern that she had. She came to me and she said, Mom, can I ask you a favor? I said, yeah, what's that? And she said, can you please take all the alcohol out of the house because Ev's having this party and all I want to do is get drunk.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:01:26)
my gosh.
Jenny Thrasher (1:01:51)
But I know it's not good for me.
That to me was thriving. That's thriving with grit. And that's one of the things we need to understand. Right. Right. And that's where one of the things I teach in the course that we're going to be coming out with soon is that there's two types of thriving. There's thriving with grit. And I think it's important that we understand this because thriving with grit doesn't always feel good. In fact, it often doesn't feel good. But we have this awareness.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:01:57)
Absolutely. There's people that are 40 years old that wouldn't have that awareness of what they need and what they don't need.
Jenny Thrasher (1:02:23)
that life could be better, that we could be healthier, and we are actively pursuing that life, then we have thriving with ease. This is when we are in flow, right? Everything's just coming to us naturally and easily. And I'll even admit, you know, I'm not thriving with ease all day, every day. I'm not there yet. I would like to believe at some point I will, you know, but things happen, right?
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:02:46)
You
Jenny Thrasher (1:02:50)
Moments happen we if you're a homeowner, you know Like things happen and you're like, okay time to cut down trees or time to time to fix the kitchen right our mental physical and emotional health is very similar to that as a car or a house and yet we act as if these bodies are just supposed to go do be and And we don't maintain them We have to maintain them and we have to start looking at the fact that
This is not simply our mental health. This is the connection between our physical, mental, and emotional health.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:03:28)
Absolutely. Let's go back to young people for a minute. Why do you think the rate of suicide is rising among young people? You know, they're more connected than ever with their devices, but more isolated than ever in certain ways, right? And is it all social media's fault? Is that the easy cop out way or is there something else happening?
Jenny Thrasher (1:03:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I look at it again, you know, looking at this from our physical, mental and emotional health. And for me, it's about taking a comprehensive approach. You see, when I had taken all the steps to support Kaylee through this, parents started calling me and saying, what did you do? What was the one thing? And I would say to them, it wasn't one thing. And I would end up on calls for, you know, sometimes two, three hours with parents who were facing these challenges with their kids. And finally, I actually wrote down all the things that we did.
It was 17 things that we did within the first six months after she had attempted suicide. So when I look at the big picture and I think like why, not just with our youth, but in general, why are we seeing this increase? Well, one, we are talking about it more. So in the past, it wasn't always documented. And not that I'm saying talking about it.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:04:43)
which just means why those statistics in the beginning might not even be likely very under -reported.
Jenny Thrasher (1:04:46)
Yeah, that's what I mean. So I'm not saying by talking about it more, we're creating it. However, I do think that we need to learn how to talk about it in a healthy and effective way. That simply talking about it more isn't the answer. Learning how to talk about it safely is going to help. But it was more to the point that the statistics aren't quite accurate, I don't believe. But when we really look at like root causes,
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:04:51)
Right.
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (1:05:15)
I believe that one of the biggest root causes is high levels of toxicity. And when I'm talking about toxicity, I'm talking about, yes, the screens that we're watching. What are we choosing to watch? Are we watching TV shows, social media, news, things that are causing us even more angst, more irritability, more aggression?
Or are we watching things that bring us joy? Are we watching things that enlighten us, that actually help us to achieve more and be more? I'll admit that I have a tendency to take on personalities of other people or things if I'm consistently exposed to it. And I think this is true for a lot of people. So this, I don't know why, but we had this tradition for a little while that we would watch the Sopranos every Christmas.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:06:06)
Okay.
Jenny Thrasher (1:06:06)
which is a weird Christmas thing to watch, but we would. And I would become Tony Soprano, right? Like, and I would just start dropping the F -bomb and I would just be like, I'm gonna shoot that person. You know, like it was just, it was crazy. Like the way that I would do it. We want to pay attention to what are we reading? What are we watching? What are we listening to? So our music, is it helping us or is it hurting us? A lot of people turn to music when they are going through something difficult and I get it.
When you hear a song that speaks to whatever pain you just experienced, you're like, I'm not alone. They get me, right? And they've, and put it on repeat, guess what happens? Okay. It just becomes a thing that we live by, right? There, there's a reason that we see musicians who die from suicide and think about it. They're up there on that stage singing their darkest moment over and over and over again.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:06:43)
and they played on repeat.
Jenny Thrasher (1:07:01)
and not even realizing the harm that is causing to themselves. And so we want to have that awareness and that recognition. I'm not saying it's a bad song, don't ever listen to it. But if you're going to, I like to do the thing where I'll turn on my heartache songs, right? And I'll give myself like, I don't know, 10, 15 minutes of like, okay, I'm just going to cry it out. Or I'm going to yell, I'm going to scream, I'm going to do whatever I need to do. And then boom, switch it to a song that's going to bring me joy or bring me peace, bring me comfort.
I'm really big into listening to different frequencies that are about calming the body, you know, activating the subconscious mind and bringing it up. So yeah, so we have toxicity when it comes to what we're watching, reading, listening to, but we also have high levels of toxicity from the things that we are eating, from the products we are putting on our body.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:07:35)
Yes.
Jenny Thrasher (1:08:00)
And somehow, somehow the FDA believes that this is okay. You know, products that are allowed in the US that are not even allowed in Europe. Right? And the thing is, we also are the most sedentary group of people that I think has ever existed. So while we're consuming all of these toxic chemicals on so many different levels, we just sit and we just let it ruminate in our body, you know? So I know for me that
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:08:09)
Absolutely, yeah.
Jenny Thrasher (1:08:30)
I have a sensitive system. So if I am all of a sudden feeling like a shift in my energy of, you know, maybe just really feeling like a depressive episode coming on or anxiety coming on, I immediately like I need to do talks, you know? And so it's just like, what did I eat? What did I consume? And really, truly pay attention to the lotions you're using. Pay attention to
the skincare products, but also the supplements that you're taking. I was working with a family at one point whose daughter went from being straight A's, had never missed a day of school, to not being able to get out of bed. And we were talking about what was going on. And then in one of our conversations, they happened to mention that she had started taking a supplement because she was feeling really insecure about her hair and nails. And I said, when did she start taking the supplement?
about a month before she stopped getting out of bed, before she became this lethargic sedentary person that couldn't function. And I said, have her stop taking the supplement. There are so many healthy supplements out there that are full of toxic chemicals. And the thing is that our bodies are processing so much that they start to shut down.
So we wanna do what we can to reduce the amount of toxins we are absorbing. And then we also want to regularly exercise. And for me, detoxing is anything from going from a run, sweating. I don't care if you're rock climbing, if you're rollerblading, if you're running, I don't care. Find something that's gonna cause you sweat. Go sit in a sauna.
But then also you can do like Epsom salt baths. You can use essential oils, you know, but listen to your body. It communicates with us. So be cautious, especially if you're doing any type of detox that involves consuming products. You know, I did a detox at one point that was like all the rage and ended up with leaky gut because I didn't realize my body personally, it couldn't handle.
that the apple cider vinegar mixed with pineapple juice and cayenne pepper, whatever. But I believed it was gonna be the thing, you know? So listen to your bodies. And, you know, I highly recommend people working with a naturopathic doctor, but I do think it's the level of toxins that is truly a root cause for the number of mental health challenges that we're facing.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:10:55)
Right.
That's that brings up another couple of issues before we close out. So you've had to take care of people who have struggled with mental health issues. You've had your own mental health issues. There are a lot of people listening who they may be healthy, but they are overwhelmed because they are taking care of somebody not necessarily who has, you know, attempted suicide or
or anything like that, but just who are dealing with significant mental health challenges. And they want to support them. And even if they didn't want to support them, they have the responsibility so they don't have a choice, which then can lead to deterioration in their mental, physical, and emotional health. So what do you say and what advice do you give to somebody who's overwhelmed by the responsibility and who might even feel kind of some resentment about it?
Jenny Thrasher (1:12:12)
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I think first and foremost, you know, it's understanding what is the role that we play. How responsible are we for others and especially once they become adults? You know, and I have two siblings who took a path that after my dad died that has led to drugs and alcohol. And does it mean that I don't help them at all?
No, actually it doesn't. I do help them. I provide support in daily. I know this might sound a little cheesy, but again, I believe in the power of energy and I say a prayer daily. That's my gratitude prayer and saying I'm grateful for the health and wellness of each person in my life. And it's much longer than that, but I won't go into it. But it is that just energetically sending my love, sending healing energy.
their way. There have been times where I have loaned them money, even when everyone else around me is like, don't do it. And I've made the decision to say I am. And I've set it with an understanding is I will loan this to you. I'm not going to ask what it's for with the expectation that you will pay me back. And if you pay me back and then further down the road, you need to borrow money again. I will loan it to you again. But if you do not pay me back,
This is it. Do not call and ask me for more money. Because at a certain point, they have to take responsibility. But I think one of the biggest things that you're alluding to, even when you're asking the question, is it's taking care of ourselves first. Putting ourselves as the priority. We rarely do that. We're not raised to do that. So even earlier when I was talking about the three types of self -care,
Responsive self -care is the hardest one for people to implement. And partly because we've been raised, especially women, women have been raised to say, you're hurting, let me take care of you. And let's be honest for a second, it's oftentimes easier to support someone else through their challenges than to face our own. Yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:14:21)
Yeah.
And to do with your own shit. Exactly. Yeah.
Jenny Thrasher (1:14:33)
Yeah, because you're a little bit detached. You're a little bit removed.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:14:36)
I've never been guilty of that. I've just heard that happens. I might know some people who've done that.
Jenny Thrasher (1:14:39)
Yeah, you know, but it does take practice and it does take making yourself a priority. You know, I believe that there are six types of suicide. And while most people know, if they know of me, they know I lost my dad to suicide because my dad died from a mental illness and due suicide. What they don't know is I lost my mom as well to suicide.
My mom was a detached suicide, meaning that she just stopped living. She stopped taking care of herself. Now, even though she had stopped taking care of herself, she continued to take care of everyone around her, you know? And I think that one of the biggest things that I would invite people to do, it was a game changer for me.
Because after my mom died, I just remember sitting at her funeral and all these people getting up and talking about the incredible woman she was and how she constantly gave and she gave and she gave and the lives that she changed and I sat there and I looked over at my siblings. I looked at my nieces and nephews. I looked at my own children and I thought...
Excuse my language for a second, but who the fuck cares? Look at how broken her family is. You guys are all up there talking about leaving a legacy? No, no, I will live my legacy. Not legacy is loving the people in my life. And loving them doesn't mean that I give them everything they want. Sometimes loving them is doing the hard thing. Loving them is forcing them to take responsibility.
loving them truly requires me to love myself.
And for me, it became this mission, you know, during 2020, I lost my mom in 2019, but in 2020, it really began this development of what do I need, right? And I think one of the questions that changed my life, and I would invite everyone to ponder on, is knowing I do not have control over the people, place, or things, what do I want to experience in this life?
So this is a vision board like no other, OK? I don't want you to put a vision board up of like your dream man or your dream house or the fancy cars. No. That stuff, it can come later. But until you set your foundation in what you truly wish to experience, for me, it was honesty, trust, laughter, meaningful connection, soulful love.
I get really clear on it and that it did. It changed my life. Not answering at once. I actually wrote it on my dry erase board in my office and every day I would sit and I'd look at the answer. And then I went and I asked myself, am I living those things? Am I actually experiencing them? Because here's the thing, Marcia. I had the dream life. I was in a 9000 square foot house in one of the richest
cities in Minnesota. We were on almost three acres of land. We had the pool. Our basement was a child's dream. All right. We had the ping pong table. We had the arcade machines. I mean, it was over the top craziness, right? I grew up in a house with almost nothing, very, very poor, married. We didn't have much, but we built this life together. And in 2020, my children came to me and said, are you getting a divorce?
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:18:14)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Thrasher (1:18:30)
And I was like, what? No, why would you ask me that? Like we don't even fight. They came to me separately about a week apart. And at this point, Kaylee had been healthy, right? Kaylee had attempted suicide in January of 2019. And this is now May of 2020. And she said, but mom, this is what you do. You help people to live their best life and you're never going to live yours as long as you're married to him.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:18:59)
Wow. Wow.
Jenny Thrasher (1:19:00)
And Grace, so Kayleigh was 16, Grace was 13, and Grace said, but you're not happy. And I said, why? But I am. Like, what are you talking about? We have a great life. And what I realized is she was right. I wasn't unhappy, but I wasn't happy either. And this is why I always say, it isn't enough to save a life. It's about living a life you love.
Figuring out what it is that you truly wish to experience, really hone in on that, make it a priority, and it will start falling into place, even though sometimes it may feel hard. It may feel challenging, but if you really stay focused on what it is you wish to experience, it will come.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:19:51)
So when we think about some of the people who are listening here who might say, all right, I've got the talking points. I know what not to say. I know what to say. How can I make this broader? So I'm in the school system, or I'm a teacher, or I am a boss at a company, or I have a bunch of employees, or I'm the head of wellness at my company. What are a couple of tangible things, besides hiring you to a consultant to come speak with them, which we encourage them to do, but don't give everything away?
Jenny Thrasher (1:20:14)
I was going to say, well, yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:20:19)
But what are some tangible things that may not cost a lot, right? Because we don't want to give anybody an excuse. So one of the things that I've done is my university offered to people to get mental health first aid certified. It's not the only thing, but it still raises awareness. And at least I know, even if I didn't have personal experience dealing with all these issues, at least I know, okay, this is something I've got to make sure that I get this person some more professional help. What are some other kinds of things that you'd recommend for employers?
Jenny Thrasher (1:20:33)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:20:48)
or for educators that they can do, more on a macro level.
Jenny Thrasher (1:20:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yes, definitely hire me to come in because the Thrive methodology will replace all the current suicide prevention trainings out there because we are focused on living a life you love. But no, there's two things I'd like people to be aware of. One is, and these are actually on my website. These are free. They should still be on allthatweare .com.
Yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:20:57)
Absolutely. And we're going to put the information about that in the show notes.
Jenny Thrasher (1:21:19)
as far as I know, but it will go into the three factors that put someone at the greatest risk. But I think it's also important to be aware of the three factors that reduce the risk of crisis. And when we're aware of those three factors and we're actually practicing them every day, it not only helps reduce the risk of crisis, but it does help us to achieve success and fulfillment. So those three factors, and they're pretty self -explanatory, but it is meaning, connection,
and contribution. So if you are a teacher, for example, or even if you are, let's just say that really the school system is no different than any other business out there. You've got leaders and you've got people that are following directions. Finding ways in your daily activity to experience any type of connect, well, not any type, meaningful connection is ideal, right? Bringing people together to work together.
It allows them the opportunity to contribute to one another, which oftentimes then will bring meaning to what they're doing or to another person's life. All right. So you want to have those three factors on a regular basis. The next thing that you'll see on the website in the same video is what I call the sit method. This is a simple three step method to crisis intervention, because even when we're doing everything right,
Right? We are eating clean. We are paying attention to what we're watching and reading. We meditate. We do all that stuff. Crisis can still happen. If not within myself, it might be someone in my space or even a stranger at the grocery store. So if we understand the SIPP method, we can intervene. And, Marcia, I don't know if you know this, but I officially created the SIPP method after being in Colombia at the wellness event that we were at together. Yeah.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:23:12)
Really? Wow.
Jenny Thrasher (1:23:14)
Cause I don't know, I don't know if you're aware, it was, it's something that I've practiced. I just had never put it into a three -step method, but it was because of an experience that happened in Columbia that I realized this pattern that I follow. And so our first official night there, it was actually about two o 'clock in the morning that I received a text message from someone and she said, are you awake? I could really use a hug.
and I immediately saw it and said, where are you? And I went to her room and I think if anyone else had gone to her, they would have immediately called for emergency services, right? Being in Columbia, I don't know what that would look like. So this is one of the things I really, really want to impress upon people. Someone going through a crisis.
doesn't always need to have 911 or 988 or a professional therapist. Okay. We have the ability to create stability, each and every one of us when we are aware and we are just being intentional in the way we're communicating. Okay. So using this, the following three steps, you can support someone and be that stability. So the first step S slow down and create the stability.
So what I did with her, I opened the, well, she opened the door and collapsed into my arm. Okay. I held her there. She had asked for hugs. I knew physical touch was important. I held her. We moved over to the bed. I sat with her and continued to hold her. I never said a word. Right. Other than I've got you. I've got you. Like I said that. And then what I was thinking, what I was thinking and what I felt my body radiating out to her was feel my love.
And that was it. And I just continued to hold her and kept thinking it over and over and over again until she started speaking and she started talking about what was going on. Okay. So this is now step two, intentional communication. This is different from active listening because active listening is where we're like parroting back what a person's saying. Okay. Intentional communication is where we're going to listen. We're going to engage. We're also going to pay attention to what they're feeling. What are we feeling? All of that.
And then what we're going to do instead of parroting back is you can, you can say, am I hearing you correctly? Is this what you're saying? But one way to help create that connection that's so important is to say, you know, I went through this, this experience. Is that similar to what you're experiencing or what you're talking about? Or maybe you don't want to share something personal about yourself, but you can say, I saw this TV show or this news story about this happening.
Is that similar? Because what you're doing in that moment is you're helping them to know they're not alone, that you are listening, that you are trying to connect with something personal, right? Even if it's not your own story, it's still the fact that you're trying. And then even if they, let's say they say yes, you're like, okay, score, we got a yes. But let's say they say no. You didn't do anything wrong by sharing a story that they don't connect with. You're learning.
Right? Because they just gave you information like, nope, that's not it. That's not what I'm OK. So let's continue. And you just do this back and forth and letting them talk and you talk and you're sharing emotion and allow space to flow just like this conversation. Right? Allow it to go in different directions. Never once focus on fixing the problem, but just allowing people to move through it. Because ideally, they're going to be the hero of their own story. OK, you're simply there holding their hand.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:26:31)
Right. Right.
Jenny Thrasher (1:27:01)
loving them without fear. And you're loving them without fear because you now have these tools and this awareness to be able to support them and to create that stability. Allow room for laughter in that moment, right? I remember with her, we were talking and she's sharing these different stories and then I shared something and I was like, good Lord, right? And it was really embarrassing and we both started laughing, you know?
What you also want to do during intentional communication, and it ties into our final step, which is T stands for transition to next steps, is you start talking about who else are we going to bring into this circle. We never want to be the only person, quote unquote, responsible for this person. So especially if it feels like a dire situation. And in her case, like I said, had it been anyone else, I am pretty sure they would have called for emergency help.
So what you want to do is start talking about, well, who else can we bring in? Well, we're in Colombia. And it's day one. So it's like, who do we know? Luckily, I knew people there. And so I said, hey, what if I were to bring in so and so and so and so? And she's, OK. And I could feel her energy. And I could test the water and see where we're at. And then the final piece of transitioning next steps. So you've talked about who else you're going to bring into it. Then you're going to say, OK, what are we going to do next?
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:28:00)
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (1:28:24)
So for us, I got to her room at 2 a It's now 5 a Most of that time has been just me holding her, sharing different stories, some laughter, some tears, a whole mix of things. I can feel her energy. She's calm. Okay? So I say to her, it's 5 a We're supposed to be at breakfast in a few hours. What do you think about maybe getting some sleep? And she's like, yeah, sleep would be good. I go, okay.
Would you like for me to stay in here and sleep with you or do you think you'd like to have some alone time? And she was like, no, I think I want some alone time. And I said, OK, perfect. And I felt safe, even though when I first got there, she was actively telling me that she was suicidal. Three hours later, I felt safe to leave her room. That is it. You want to slow down and create stability. You want to have intentional communication. And then you want to transition to next steps.
And they don't have to be anything grand, anything huge. It can quite literally be, hey, let's touch base in about 15 minutes or let's touch base in a couple of hours. And sometimes when we're dealing with someone that it's a, we're navigating a situation that is a situational crisis, meaning that it really was just in the moment. I mean, most of the time, let's admit there's some childhood trauma there that's been activated. That's why it feels so big. And if you feel comfortable going there, great.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:29:45)
Right.
Jenny Thrasher (1:29:52)
If you don't, don't, you know, just be genuine, be authentic, be intentional. And I think when you have that, what I love about the SIT method is each step can be practiced every single day without simulating a crisis. So when you ask like, how can teachers do this? How can bosses, how can corporations?
Practice bringing in the three factors that reduce the risk of crisis, meaning, connection, contribution. Find ways to practice the SIT method. Slow down and create stability. Maybe it's just a heated conversation in a boardroom, right? But slow down and create stability. Have intentional communication. Transition to next steps. Do those things on a regular basis. Who knows? The world could change.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:30:45)
The world would change. And Jenny, this has been such an impactful conversation, not just for people who are dealing with suicide. It could be a friend who has suffered with a miscarriage. So many other things, because you said earlier, there's so many things that people are grieving. They're grieving the loss of a marriage, the loss of a loved one, the loss of a business, the loss of a dream, the loss of hope, right? And the tools that you've given us, which are on your website, and we'll have links to it in the show notes, are incredibly helpful. They're tangible.
They're accessible. I've spent a lot of time looking at the site. It's such a ridiculous resource. But if people want to bring you in, either to consult with you on a more long -term basis or to have you come in and give presentations, how can they reach you? And who do you serve mainly?
Jenny Thrasher (1:31:30)
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm actually in my own time of transition. So we will all give you all the information to share in the show notes of both websites because I currently have two websites, but we're transitioning to jenniethrasher .com. So if you are interested in connecting with me, I do offer coaching. So one -to -one coaching. I also offer corporate or organizational consulting.
going in and doing workshops and training individuals on the different things that I teach. And then speaking engagements. And so yes, all of that is on the website and you can access it there. And it's a work in progress, but the foundation of Jenny, I know, I know. I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by some really truly incredible and gifted human beings that are helping me to get this work out there.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:32:18)
a masterpiece and a work in process at the same time.
Jenny Thrasher (1:32:29)
We will soon be launching Thrive, which is about a 90 minute course that is a six part program that like I said, it's going to revolutionize the way we approach suicide prevention. And we're gonna really focus on that. How do we live the life we love?
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:32:47)
There is no greater mission that I can think of because it literally is saving lives. If people remember one thing from today, just one, what is it you want them to remember?
Jenny Thrasher (1:33:00)
Love yourself. Love yourself. That is the key to wellness.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:33:10)
Excellent. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for being here. And for all of you who listened, I know you found this helpful. There is something for everybody in this episode. Please like, share, subscribe, share with as many people as you have and save it because one day it may not be now, but one day someone is going to come to you and you may not remember everything you've heard now, but you've got the language, you've got the tools and you could save a life. And that could be your child's life, your spouse, your friend. So please.
Listen to this more than once save it and please use the fantastic resources that Jenny has on her site and we'll have all of those links in the show notes for you. So thanks again Jenny this I do think so far this is I think episode 26 to 27 probably the most important one I've done so far and maybe the most important one I do in the future because this topic affects everybody if not now later unfortunately and I look for the day where there's nothing to talk about on this because
because we've all got the language, we've got the tools, and people are living the life that they love and loving themselves while they're doing it. So thanks again, Jenny.
Jenny Thrasher (1:34:21)
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Marcia Narine Weldon (1:34:24)
Thank you. Stop.
I'm trying to see stop.
