TRANSCRIPT
0:00:00 - (Stephanie):
They are like sponges right through probably the end of their 7th year. So the impact of what you say and do during those years is very high, right? So that they will take things in on a very emotional level and they're living more in their emotional brains. Having a loving household that has boundaries, you know, clear boundaries that help kids feel safe and gentleness and understanding and fun and play, all those pieces are so helpful for children up.
0:00:37 - (Stephanie):
I mean, they're helpful all the way through, really. But those first three years and then, you know, the first seven years are particularly impactful, I would say.
0:00:49 - (Marcia):
Welcome to the Illuminating Wisdom podcast. I'm your host, Marcia and Ryan Weldon, and I'm a lawyer, business strategist, corporate trainer, and executive coach. Each week I'm going to bring you my favorite entrepreneurs, thought leaders, legal professionals, and other coaches who will inspire, educate, and empower you. So if you're a parent, you know a parent, or you want to become a parent, then this episode is for you.
0:01:15 - (Marcia):
But before we get started, today's episode is brought to you by illuminating wisdom. If you're a professional or entrepreneurial woman who wants to release, reset and reinvent yourself in a private villa on a private beach in Jamaica with a private chef, you want to join us in October, October 26 and November 1 for our exclusive retreat where you're can to receive one to one coaching, eat decadent food Network with like minded women, learn about ayurveda and holistic health, unwind with yoga, gentle movement, and sound healing every single day, and enjoy excursions to beautiful waterfalls and a private island.
0:01:47 - (Marcia):
So if that interests you, go ahead to elliminatingwisdom.com and look for the retreat section of the site or check the show notes for more details. But now on to our guest. So doctor Stephanie Dugger is an author, educator, parent coach, and psychotherapist who works with expectant and new parents and their little ones up to age five. Her book preparing for parenthood, 55 essential conversations for couples becoming families in 2020, is the book she wish she'd had for herself when she first became app parent, and it was the win of a bronze medal for parenting and relationship books in 2022 global Book Awards and a finalist in the 2023 Book Excellence Awards.
0:02:25 - (Marcia):
She also facilitates parent workshops and courses. And you should check out her new podcast for expected new parents called Prepared for parenthood. Doctor Dugar lives in Colorado with her husband, who's also a therapist, I not mistaken two daughters and a giant furball of a dog. So welcome to the podcast.
0:02:43 - (Stephanie):
Thank you so much. Marcia, it's great.
0:02:45 - (Marcia):
And I'm gonna call you Stephanie, if you don't mind, because that's what I call you. And I know you specialize in kids up to five. Some of our listeners may have kids older than five. So I'm gonna ask you kind of the whole spectrum, because you're the parent whisperer today, or the child whisper, whichever.
0:03:02 - (Stephanie):
That's great. Thank you.
0:03:04 - (Marcia):
So you've been a teacher and you're now a therapist, and you focus on family issues and especially on raising children. How did your prior career as a teacher inform your therapy practice and your views on just best practices on parenting in general?
0:03:18 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. So I started out as a teacher in my twenties. I had worked as a swim coach and other things in my teens. And I love children, love families. And I found that in the six years that I was teaching elementary and middle school, I was always drawn to the kids who were kind of needier, kind of out of the box. And I was really wanting to engage them and help them. And I really got surprised by how much I realized I didn't know. Once I became a parent myself, I felt like I knew a lot about children.
0:03:58 - (Stephanie):
But it's a very different thing having a child in a classroom than it is having a child full time at home. And so I moved from teaching into therapy. I became a wilderness therapist and then a clinical psychologist.
0:04:14 - (Marcia):
Before you go on, what's a wilderness therapist? Because I know what it is. But some people might say, what does that mean?
0:04:19 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. So I worked with people out of the comfort of their homes. So we'd go out camping, canoeing, backpacking, things like that. Because the belief is that nature can be the best teacher, and so you're bound to meet all of your challenges, kind of get natural consequences. So if you don't feel like setting up your tent, you're going to get cold and wet at night, probably. So it's a great teacher in that way. And so it can bring things up really quickly.
0:04:53 - (Stephanie):
So that's what wilderness thepy is. And my focus was on horticultural therapy. So I did a lot of building gardens and things like that with kids in schools. So then I became, I became a mom right after that and realized going out for two to four weeks at a time into the woods wasn't very practical, so switched into becoming a pre and perinatal psychologist. And so that's been my focus since then. And the kind of bridge over from teaching to therapy is really helpful because when you're in the classroom with a child who's having any kind of emotional challenge.
0:05:37 - (Stephanie):
They can't really learn, right. Their brain is not in that space to be able to learn, so they have to have those emotional needs met. So the kids that I was working with, the ones who had bigger challenges at home, we just couldn't get anywhere with a learning piece of things we were trying to accomplish in the classroom until those emotional needs were met. So I spent a lot of time doing teaching the kids emotional regulation skills and skills around how to get along with each other and how to solve conflicts and things like that so that they could be a little bit more successful.
0:06:18 - (Marcia):
And they don't really teach that. Now. I wish had, wish people did teach about emotional regulation and dysregulation in the schools because things would be. I think we have a very different society right now. But did you mention two words? And I know a lot of people, but I've never met a prenatal psychologist or perinatal psychologist, and I have to assume that if I don't know what that is, then probably most of the listeners and viewers won't know what that is either.
0:06:42 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. So the pre anderinatal psychology and health field started out in probably this. Well, first came up probably in the thirties, but it didn't really get delulled into until about the seventies. And even then it was kind of fringy. But the idea is a being in utero is growing into whoever they're going to be. So they come in with their genetic makeup, they come in with whatever kind of relationship the parents have with that child who's growing and is deeply impacted by everything that happens.
0:07:25 - (Stephanie):
So we know biologically the child is impacted by, for example, what the mother eats, how much stress she has. If there's major challenges or traumas that happened during that time, that child feels that. And as well, birth is deeply impactful. So in this country, at least, we know that at least a third of all births end up in a c section. Sometimes that goes pretty smoothly and sometimes it doesn't.
0:08:02 - (Stephanie):
And also, there are other interventions that happen that can be really challenging for babies. And a baby, while they may not cognitively remember it, they remember it on a body level. And so this stuff will come out and you'll see it. A child up to about three years old, once they can speak, can share their birth experience. So you can ask a little child, you know, what do you remember about, you know, being in your mom's belly or being born? And they amazingly often can tell you quite a bit of detail about what happened without ever having been told this information, that's really interest. And obviously, the.
0:08:44 - (Stephanie):
Sorry. The parent also has their own experience.
0:08:46 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:08:47 - (Stephanie):
And so it's a dynamic because they're so connected.
0:08:52 - (Marcia):
It's really interesting. And I have shared this publicly and openly. I am a survivor of domestic violence and my son's father. There was a lot of yelling when I was pregnant. I was also on antibiotics because I was unexpectedly pregnant. So I was always thinking, is my sonn toa come out with three eyes? And then I had a very long labor of 36 hours and an emergency c section. And I've always wondered kind of what that does to a child because back then, in the early nineties, mid nineties, weren't really talking about c section being traumatic.
0:09:25 - (Marcia):
And my, I wasn't planning to have a c section. It was literally like, heart rate is dropping. You got to do it right now. I'like, okay. But I think that's interesting, and I hope listeners go back and ask. And it's also interesting because a few years ago, I'm now certified as a hypnotherapist, but I wanted to go through hypnotherapy myself. I know they do a lot of work in terms of what do you remember about being in the womb?
0:09:45 - (Marcia):
And I had very specific memories that I don't know where they came from, but I knew them. So either it's my subconscious saying, this is what happened, but it was clear to me, you know, 50 something years later, I remember this, I remember that. And I thought that was kind of a little fringy and crazy like you said, but. But you're completely right. So I encourage people, if they go to, if they go to a hypnotherapist, to do that kind of work, because it was a dramatic, was a dramatic, it was a game changer for me in terms of how I thought about a lot of things and things that I used to blame people for or think, why is this happened? Why that happened? And.
0:10:20 - (Marcia):
And so much of that is true. It's not just did your mother eat too many cookies or that kind of thing.
0:10:27 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And I think the beauty in that story is that you can heal this at any time in your life. So even if you're in your fifties, you can go back through something like hypnotherapy and have those very, very real vivid biological body memories that will come up and you can heal it. And if you do it early with, say, you had a traumatic birth with your own child, if you do it early, with them and do that repair.
0:11:00 - (Stephanie):
Then they get to live their life, you know, the next 50 years, not having some of the challenges, which is beautiful.
0:11:06 - (Marcia):
So I love that. Excellent. Now, one of the things you specialize is in something called somatic attachment work. What is that? And don't, I don't know if you need to define somatic first and then attachment or how you'd like to define it, but for a layer audience, please.
0:11:21 - (Stephanie):
Sure. So soma is the body. So somatic is anything that's happening in the body. And attachment is attachment theory versus attachment parenting. Attachment theory is something that was developed by John Bolby and Mary Ainsworth back in the fifties, sixties, and again was seen as very fringy and didn't fall under Freud'kind of umbrella. And so they upset a lot of people. But now it's like the most common framework of therapy that there is, really.
0:12:00 - (Stephanie):
attachment is around the experience of the child's relationship to their parent or parents or any other primary caregiver they might have. And it develops very early in utero, and it's especially important in those early years. So if we develop a strong, secure attachment, we're likely to go through the world feeling like the world is okay and can be trusted generally, and people are okay and can be trusted generally.
0:12:37 - (Stephanie):
And then if we don't have that, if we have some challenging attachment experiences, we can end up feeling a little avoidant, like, oh, I don't really want to engage or feeling ambivalent. I want to engage sometimes and not other times. And what we notice is, in the insecure attachments, the anxiety level is very high for people. And so if we work on helping people resolve those attachments by creating a healthy attachment as an older person, as a teen, or as an adult, either with a trusted person in general, or a therapist, we can heal some of that, and then they can live the rest of their lives feeling like, oh, the world is pretty okay, and people are pretty okay.
0:13:30 - (Stephanie):
So somatic attachment is actually working on those pieces in the body because it shows up biologically, we have higher anxiety, we feel a lot of stress, and you can help to regulate your nervous system and help your experience of being in relationship feel more easeful.
0:13:54 - (Marcia):
So the, how else does it manifest in terms of the body? So you talked about anxiety, which can, of course, have physical and emotional and mental manifestations outwardly. Where else would it show up in the body? So how would somebody know, hey, this is actually me, if they're sitting there thinking about it, because maybe they don't have anxiety. But how else might it show up that they'd say, okay, I need to get some professional help with this.
0:14:19 - (Stephanie):
Sure. So that's a great question. So a lot of people who come to me have gut issues. So things will show up where. Yeah, things will show up where, you know, the butterflies in the stomach feels a little intense. So it might show up literally, physically, as a physical manifestation in your body, and it shows up differently in different bodies. Right. So you might hold stress, say, in your throat and have trouble speaking or speaking when it's important.
0:14:58 - (Stephanie):
You might hold stress in your hands and your feet and always feel, like, cramped up. You might get massive headaches in one part of your head. Migraines or migraines, yeah. And be like, it always comes out under stress. What is this about?
0:15:17 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:15:18 - (Stephanie):
And so I always invite people to just get curious, like, get curious about what's happening in your body, get curious about your interactions, get curious about the story that you're telling yourself. Like, am I telling myself this person always does this, and I have this story about them, and that's why it's impacting me. Or do you see that story playing out with lots of different people and maybe it's more about you. Like, it's your piece that you need to examine. So to just have curiosity and not judgment around it. Right.
0:15:53 - (Stephanie):
Not like, oh, I shouldn't feel this, or it means that I'm deficient in some way. Just like, oh, like, this is interesting. I could get some support with this and feel better. So one thing that's interesting, encourage that.
0:16:08 - (Marcia):
O, I'm sorry, there was a little bit of a lag, so my apologies. One thing that's interesting is he talked about the attachment theories and some people might know it from, there's been some, a lot of books out about relationships. Is he avoidant? Is he insecure? Are youuree, is that the same thing we're talking about? Because people look at in terms of, I mean, I don't want to say he, why can't she stay in the relationship? Or why is she always run away? Or why does she shut down?
0:16:34 - (Marcia):
Is it that same thing? And it all goes back to basically childhood.
0:16:38 - (Stephanie):
Everything is the parents s fault is, and I don't want to blame parents for it because it's intergenerational. So it actually might be the grandparents that you come into it with or the great grandparents even. So, a lot of studies, they've done a lot of studies on people who survived the Holocaust. Yes. And noticed a lot of things getting passed down by people who were just an egg in their grandmother at the time.
0:17:10 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:17:11 - (Stephanie):
So they were an egg inside their mother, gestating inside the grandmother. And they still have things that show up that kind of echo the Holocaust.
0:17:22 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:17:23 - (Stephanie):
So an emphasis on starvation and things like that. So pretty amazing what we can carry down from generation to generation. And yes, the answer to that question is yes, that is all attachment. And you can have a really healthy early attachment, say, up to age three, and then something horrible could happen. Maybe a parent doesies, right? And your sense of safety in the world is gone. So it's like starting over.
0:18:00 - (Stephanie):
So I don't want to just say it's all like, put all the pressure on the parents. Yes. It is critical and important that you are present and available and loving towards your child. And there are other factors that play in as well. And some of that is the child's own temperament.
0:18:19 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:18:19 - (Stephanie):
So the child comes in with their own personality and their own way of being in the world. And for some parents, certain temperaments match up and others don't as well. And so it can be more challenging to parent certain children for some parents than other children. So all of that is very real. And again, you can heal this stuff at any time. So you can be in your forties, in a relationship and be worried about why your partner is not showing up and label them as avoidant or something, and then go to couple therapy together and say, oh, like, there are ways that we can actually work through this. It's not a deal breaker, necessarily.
0:19:07 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:19:07 - (Stephanie):
As long as both people are willing to work on things.
0:19:10 - (Marcia):
Great. So you've said that's three podcasts worth of stuff and that answer you gave. But I want to go back to something. I'm assuming when you were talking about things that get passed down generalationally, are you talking about the concept of epigenetics?
0:19:24 - (Stephanie):
Right. Yeah.
0:19:25 - (Marcia):
Encage people. I'll put some notes in the show. Notes for people. But I encourage people to look at that because I've seen some studies where it can go back sometimes seven generations. And that can be very serious because I think this is important for parents to hear. Right. Because we're going to talk about some of your parenting tips in a minute. And we're also going to talk about older because some people like, it's too late. My kids are older than five. What can I do? So we're going to talk about that, too.
0:19:45 - (Marcia):
But sometimes I think parents feel guilty about, why does my child do this? There'nothing like me or we didn't raise this child to do this or we're both a happy, loving Brady bunch type of house. Why is this problem happening? So I think, and again, it's not a matter of fault. It's really more of an explanation. So I think that's helpful construct for people to understand. But when it comes to preparing to be a parent, so people now know this.
0:20:13 - (Marcia):
What are some of your best tips? And I see behind you for those who are seeing this on video, she's got her books, so maybe she can hold it up also. And if you're listening, we'll put it in the show notes so you can order it. So preparing for parenthood, you ve got 55 essential conversations there.
0:20:29 - (Stephanie):
Thank you.
0:20:30 - (Marcia):
With the beautiful blue Robin's egg. But what are some tips to think about preparing? And then we're going to talk about, what are some of conversations? I know, for example, you talked about setting rules around discipline, who pays the role in the family. And I imag ##agine a lot of people I know are blending families. So there's preparing pre parenthood like we're about to have a baby or now I'm taking care of somebody else's baby or I'm now part of the family. So what are some of the things that you see in your practice that you think could be kind of practical, actionable tips that people at least can think about?
0:21:04 - (Stephanie):
Sure. So I think the biggest thing for expectant parents or parents in general or humans in general is to do your own work on yourself. And I say that because I'm a therapist. So nobody wants to do a lot of work.
0:21:21 - (Marcia):
You, nobody wants to do that.
0:21:22 - (Stephanie):
Right.
0:21:22 - (Marcia):
They want the other person to do work.
0:21:24 - (Stephanie):
Right. You've got to hear first, and especially in a, in a culture where we're used to kind of instant gratification. It's not instant gratification here. It's hard work. It's uncovering, like, what are the things that I can kind of do better and where are the things that, you know, I kind of need to look at myself and make some changes. But it is the most important work that you can do for yourself and for your kids and for any relationship that you have. So if you don't have children, if you decide to be in relationship with another adult, if you're in relationship with your own parents, with, are still living. Right. It's in relationship with your friends.
0:22:08 - (Stephanie):
That is the most important work that you can do, I believe, and will take you the farthest. So if you want to gift your children and I'll speak specifically to children here. You want to gift your children with the best gift ever. It's take care of your own crap that you haven't dealt with yet because it's going to come out. And kids are great mirrors, right? They will mirror exactly what the hardest thing is for you to deal with. It's like, you know, it's why people have a challenge, usually with the terrible twos or threes and teenagers, right. Because those are the times when kids are most likely to be pushing back and they're going toa call you out on everything, especially a teenager. So I have a preteen and a teenager at home, and they will just call it straight. They'll call it straight, which I love, you know, I'm like, oh, yeah, bring it. Like, it's hard.
0:23:11 - (Stephanie):
It doesn't always feel good, but I'm like, yep, I needed to hear that. That was important.
0:23:16 - (Marcia):
And so'lucky to have you as a mom who wouldn't just say, don't talk back to me. Who do you think you are?
0:23:21 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. And that. And actually, I have that tape running in my head, like, how dare you? Right? But what comes out of my mouth is very different. So I have to stop and be like, this actually is really helpful. And sometimes, sometimes it's not about me, right. Sometimes it's the child having a big emotion, but sometimes it's like a really great reflection of, like, oh, yeah, that's totally what I did, and that's exactly what my mom said to me or my grandmother said to me or whatever. So it can be so illuminating, one of your words, right? So, yeah, I feel like it's so doing that work prior to having a child is such a gift. But if you don't get to it before you have a child, you have your whole lifetime to do it, and your children will appreciate it even if you never get to it until they're adults.
0:24:16 - (Stephanie):
Right. If you're like, oh, like, I probably did some things when I was parenting that maybe I feel not great about, and I should look at that. Or, I'm hearing back from my child now that when I did x as a parent when they were little, it hurt their feelings and I didn't know it then. And how do I go back and repair? So the other piece that is most important is to know how to do repair well. And by repair, I mean not just apologize.
0:24:46 - (Stephanie):
It's like taking real ownership. Like, wow, with a little child, I lost my temper. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to scare you? I'm feeling really, really upset. Like, I haven't had enough sleep or whatever's going on. I'm gonna go take a break and take care of myself, and I'm going toa come back in five minutes. And how do you feel about that? Like, asking the child, what did you feel when mommy got upset or daddy got upset or whatever and doing that real repair, because not only are you helping the child know that it's okay to get really upset sometimes. Sometimes you're really mad or really sad. You have big emotions.
0:25:30 - (Stephanie):
And we want to show kids it's okay to have all those emotions. And if we hurt someone inadvertently or on purpose, it's important to go back and help that person feel better and help them understand our experience. I got really upset when you said this. It really hit something in me that didn't feel good, or you said it in a way that was really hard for me to hear, and I kind of lost my temper or I started crying or whatever it was.
0:26:03 - (Stephanie):
And it's okay. Like, I'm going toa get through this. I'm going to be fine. And we are still in relationship, and it's fine. You can get mad at me, like, especially with a teen, you can get really mad at me. You can tell me you hate me. It's all okay. I'm still going to love you, and I'm always going to be here. And I think for parents of any child, or parents expecting a child, knowing how to do that work, and if you don't know how to do that work, practice it now.
0:26:36 - (Stephanie):
And you can be messy at it. It's okay to be messy. You'll get better as you do it more. But those are critical pieces for kids.
0:26:46 - (Marcia):
So I'm going to push back on you. Like, some of my listeners might say, like, you know, so, for example, I grew up in a west indian household. I could not, you know, I cannot imagine my parents ever saying that to me. And what happens if the child borders goes from, you know, expressing their feelings to being disrespectful? Right? Because some people will sit there and say, I'm not apologizing to my kid for anything. They shouldn't have said. What? You know, I'm the adult, you're the child.
0:27:11 - (Marcia):
So where is that balance? Because I can't be the first person that said this to you. Like, that sounds really great because you're a therapist and you were trained to do that, and, you know, this is you. But, like, I'm a regular human being and at some point my kid's go goingn say something crazy. And, you know, I may not, you know, engage in corporal punishment, but I'm going to yell back and dam, I'm sure I'm not going to apologize. As a matter of fact, they should apologize to me.
0:27:34 - (Marcia):
So let's imagine at least one listener is thinking that after you said you should think about your feelings. So where is the line between disrespect and sharing the feelings? And do you, as a parent, or do you recommend as a parent, having a different reaction?
0:27:50 - (Stephanie):
Yeah, great question. So I, as the adult, have an adult brain. A child does not have an adult brain. They're not thinking like an adult. They're not thinking through step two, step three, step four. What. How is what I say going to impact you? They're not there, especially if they're little. If they're teenagers, all bets are off the table, right? So it's like they have so much going on and. And that's such a huge period of growth.
0:28:23 - (Stephanie):
And they're impulsive, right. Teens are naturally impulsive because that's what's happening in their brain. So your brain stops developing technically when you're 26. So I try to hold that piece of, like, okay, it's probably actually not about me. Probably not about me. And that's like a saying that I keep with me all the time, whether I'm working with a client who yells at me or whatever. I'm like, probably not about me.
0:28:57 - (Stephanie):
Maybe something got triggered that I said, but it's not about me personally. Right. And that's usually true with children, too. So when they snap at you or say something disrespectful, it's not around. Just like, oh, it's all good. Like, you can say whatever you need, whatever you want. It's a time for teaching, but not right in that moment.
0:29:28 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:29:28 - (Stephanie):
So it's like, wow, that hurt. Like, with a teenager especially, or an older child, you can be like, wow, that was. That felt really bad. That really hurt me. Which is the intention, right? Like, they're throwing a dart at you because of whatever, and it sounds like you're really angry, right. And what you're going to get back is like, of course I'm angry. Va. You did, blah, blah, blah. Right? And then it's like, I want to be able to hear what you're saying, but I can't hear it when you're screaming at me.
0:30:04 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:30:05 - (Stephanie):
Or calling me names or whatever it is. So I want to hear there's all. It's never what's coming out of that person's mouth, it's what's underneath it, right? So if, if you can hold on to this is a child, even if your child is taller than you, because they're a teenage boy or whatever, and they're, like, coming down on you, yelling at you, right. And you're like, this is a grown man. It's not a grown man. It's got, that person has a child's brain, right. And so they can't, once they hit 27, then they should know how to, they should know how to, how to communicate better. Oay, right?
0:30:45 - (Marcia):
Yeah. And so some parents are sitting there saying, I've got 15 more years of this.
0:30:50 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. And you do. And that's what you take on as a parent. Right. You have to be able to hold your seat. You have to be able to be like, I'm goingna stay grounded here. I'm gonna keep breathing if I need to. I'mnna leave, right. And I'm going toa tell the child, I'm really hurt. I'm really triggered. I'm very upset. I want to hear what you have to say because I know it's important. I can't hear it when I feel like if you run the story, my child is disrespectful or my child is being disrespectful. If that's what's running in your brain, it's not about them being disrespectful.
0:31:28 - (Stephanie):
They have a need, they're upset, and they're trying to express it, and they don't know how to do it well. Right. And so you have to back away and be like, okay, that hurt. I'm going to go baw my eyes out in the bathroom. I'm going to come back and be like, okay, can you just see if you can say it again in a way that I can hear it? Because you're also helping them to learn how to do this when they're out in the world.
0:31:57 - (Stephanie):
Right. Like, you can't talk to your teachers like this. You can't talk to your boss like this. You have to be able to keep it together and express whatever the need is. Right. And so it's a teaching process, and that's our job as parents. We have to take that on. We can't be like, you should just know how to do this. And because I have an adult brain, I know how to do it, so you should, too. You're five or 15 or 20.
0:32:25 - (Stephanie):
You don't necessarily know how to do that. Very well, and obviously it's all developmentally, some kids are more skilled than others earlier on. So keeping that in mind, like who your child is specifically. But I think it's important, right. We have to be able to take some of that and not take it personally. It's actually not about us, really.
0:32:51 - (Marcia):
And that's why I think what you're saying about doing that work on yourself first makes it so much easier because you've learned your own ways to regulate your emotions. You've gotten rid of your own stories that you have that you might be imputing onto your child, which makes things a lot worse. Before we get to talking about your book, you know, you talked about, you know, zero to three that you can start talking learned through number of different ways about the importance of the age, like zero to seven or zero to eight in terms of what goes into kids heads, into their psyches and, and how important that time is for who they end up being as an adult. Can you talk a little bit to that, please?
0:33:30 - (Stephanie):
Sure. So zero to three is a specific time period of tremendous brain growth. And so they're putting things together in their bodies in a very foundational way. And obviously, it doesn't just stop when they're three. It continues going on and up to age seven, depending on where you get your information from, whether it's kind of Waldorf based or whatever, there's kind of a sensitive sensitivity around children.
0:34:07 - (Stephanie):
So they are not thinking. They're thinking in black and white terms up until that age. Right. So whether you talk about it as kind of the etheric body and what they're absorbing, they are like sponges right through probably the end of their 7th year. And so the impact of what you say and do during those years is very high so that they will take things in on a very emotional level. And they're living more in their emotional brains, which is kind of lower in the brain than kind of our thinking, planning brain up front here.
0:34:51 - (Stephanie):
And so while they are gaining some of the skills and they're making connections to that upper brain, they're really living in their emotions. And so being really loving and like having a loving household that has boundaries, clear boundaries that help kids feel safe and gentleness and understanding and fun and play, all those pieces are so helpful for children up. I mean, they're helpful all the way through, really. But those first three years and then, you know, the first seven years are particularly impactful, I would say.
0:35:35 - (Stephanie):
Great.
0:35:36 - (Marcia):
So you've written this book which you showed a few minutes ago, preparing for parenthood 55 essential conversations for couples becoming families of course we want people to read the book and we're going to attach a link to it in the show notes. But what are some essential conversations that you can share with us that you think needs to happen? And I'd like you to, the second thing I'd like you to think about as you talk about for couples having families, but many people are having families without being part of a couple.
0:36:03 - (Marcia):
And so I don't know if some of those would also relate to. These are the things you need to have a conversation with yourself or think about this or a conversation with the therapist before you decide to go in and have kids. I have a number of friends who are in their late thirties or thirties, frozen their eggs, and they may never have a partner. So I'm not sure if it also would apply. So I'd love your thoughts on that.
0:36:22 - (Stephanie):
Sure. Yeah. So I set it up as couples, but I love what you said that, you know, obviously so many people either by choice or not by choice or having children on their own. And so again, it's doing the work on yourself. So the whole first chunk of the book, probably the first third of the book, is all about how you are in relationship. And that can be a relationship with your mom who'snna help you take care of your child, or your friends or whoever, if you're not in a committed relationship with someone.
0:37:01 - (Stephanie):
And so I do believe that having these conversations kind of with yourself can be very helpful or have them with a friend just banter back and forth. The other piece is there are two pieces in terms of being in a couple relationship that are hugely important. One of them is important to all relationships. The other is more geared towards couples. So for every relationship, one of the foundational pillars, I believe is communication.
0:37:34 - (Stephanie):
It's the most important thing. Obviously it's applicable to every single relationship out there. The better communication you have, the fewer conflicts, if you misunderstandings, the more easeful it's going to be as you move through your life. The second pillar is intimacy. And so you have a certain level of intimacy with your family members, with your friends. But the intimacy that I'm talking about specifically in here is sex.
0:38:03 - (Stephanie):
So it's a little different than you're probably not having sex with your friends. And some people probably different than that, maybe some people are, but so it's a little different in that way. Yeah. So the communication and the intimacy, a lot of the conversations focus on that. Like how do you deal with arguments, like what happens in your body, in those instances, what do you notice? How do you react? How do you greet each other at the beginning of the day? At the end of the day, how do you say good night?
0:38:36 - (Stephanie):
All those little interactions throughout the day say a lot about a relationship, and then it moves from that into intimacy.
0:38:46 - (Marcia):
Right?
0:38:46 - (Stephanie):
Like, how do you connect with one another? How often do you have sex? What's your sex like? So, like, getting those conversations out there of, like, wow, like, I have't. We don't talk about this or you. We don't talk about how we talk or we don't talk about sex. Those pieces often come up when people come to me for support. They're like, oh, well, we've never really talked about our sex life at all unless something really isn't going well.
0:39:17 - (Stephanie):
And so I think it's important to just have those available conversations with people, and then it moves. The book moves into things like your roles. What roles do you currently play? Like, is someone always taking care of the trash or is someone always walking the dog? Or how do things play out now before you have a child and know that once you have a child, things are going to have to shift, at least for a period of time, pretty dramatically.
0:39:49 - (Stephanie):
So really having those conversations, talking about money. Right? Money is always a big one. Having a child while in the first year is normally not very expensive. It gets expensive. So over time, like, what are your plans around money? And how do you want to navigate that? And then it goes into things like pregnancy. What are the, like, how are you going to seek help during pregnancy? Who are you getting support from?
0:40:19 - (Stephanie):
Where are you having your baby? What if things don't go as planned, which they often don't, and then it moves into birth and postpartum. And so a lot of the birth piece is talking about that. Like, things often don't go as planned, and then the postpartum is really pretty focused on just, like, the super early time of, like, how are you going to feed your child? And diapering, essentially, and then getting support.
0:40:48 - (Stephanie):
So support is, I think, perhaps the most important thing for new parents, maybe for all parents, maybe for all people. Support is the most important thing, having access to people who can help you through that period of time. Because I know for me, it was pretty shocking. I had children a little bit later, and I had already had multiple careers and kind of was my own person, but I was like, I've worked with kids and families my whole life.
0:41:21 - (Stephanie):
My husband's also a therapist, and we thought we had a dial. And I'm an avid reader read every book out there, you know, did all the research, and it was very humbling at the lived experience of becoming a parent. So I like to normalize that piece of like can be kind of shocking, and that's normal.
0:41:42 - (Marcia):
Your book sounds a lot more comprehensive than, you know. When I did the same thing, I was like, I'm going to read what to expect when you're expecting. And I like every single book out there. And, you know, you know, my son was born in the mid nineties, so you what limited amount you could find on the Internet still, it was there, but it wasn't like today, where there's 8 million TikTok and Instagram videos and all those kind of things.
0:42:01 - (Marcia):
But it sounds like a really helpful resource either, you know, whether you're alone or whether you're with somebody else to really kind of think through those things, because sometimes we just, you know, we think we know it all.
0:42:12 - (Stephanie):
Oh, yeah.
0:42:12 - (Marcia):
I've taken care of my niece and nephew all the time. How hard can this be? It's really different when it comes to your own, you know. Twenty four seven. I want to ask you about some listeners might be parenting older children and what'I'm, sure you see this in your practice, and it has probably changed a lot just over the past few years about we've got the age of rising suicides and overdoses and gun violence and lockdowns in schools and school shootings and social media addiction and mental health crisis among adolescents. And how, what kind of advice are you giving to parents in terms of how they can talk to their kids and, and what kinds of things should we be thinking of in terms of not having our kids live in a hyper anxious world but still being vigilant?
0:43:01 - (Marcia):
And I'm particularly concerned about social media. I teach a class on a number of things that we've talked about the role of social media and the algorithms, and that's why there's lawsuits bought by school districts about how social media has really led to a significant increase in anxiety, especially among young girls. What's something that parents should think about or that they can do without? That's practical, right? Because you can't say get off the Internet because the kids are just going to do what they're going to do. So is there anything practical or is this just a lost cause?
0:43:35 - (Stephanie):
No, it's not a lost cause. I think it's challenging and I think it's systemic, and that makes it extra challenging. Right. And like I said earlier, I have a preteen and a teen and they're both girls. And so we're navigating this brave new world right now, and it's a very different world than the world that I grew up in. And so having. And we just went through a pandemic as well. So that piece raised the aune in terms of anxiety in kids.
0:44:10 - (Stephanie):
And so I think especially with social media and screens in general, it's really helpful. Just, you know, a practical tip is to cut it off at some point at night, right? So say everybody in our family, after 09:00 at night, you put your phone in the kitchen. Everybody plugs their phone in the same place. It's in the basket. You don't touch it until the morning, right. Because a lot of what's happening is kids are scrolling at night, they're engaging at night.
0:44:41 - (Stephanie):
It interrupts their sleep. They're getting hard messages that go into their subconscious when they're sleeping. It's just really challenging. And then before kids go to bed, really having some good connection time. So I always tell parents, you know, right when kids wake up, when they come home from school or after school activities and before bed, those are three really critical connection times. And so making really good contact, giving them a hug if they'll let you hug them if they're teenagers, and just checking in, like, good eye contact. Like, hey, I'm here.
0:45:24 - (Stephanie):
The world can be hard. Friendships can be hard. School can be hard. The world can be bananas, and I'm here for you. So if you ever need to talk about anything or you want to talk to somebody else, because sometimes they don't want to talk to their parents. Like, there are other adults in our community that you can reach out to, and they know that there are certain parents in our circle of friends that they will go to of, like, hey, I don't feel comfortable telling my dad this, but can I talk this over with you?
0:45:57 - (Stephanie):
And so having that network of real, actual, live people, not just social media stuff, is so critical, right. So anytime you can kind of set limits around it, right. And I don't. I would never say take it away. Totally. Because it's an important way for kids to communicate that. It wasn't growing up for me. We had the phone attached.
0:46:21 - (Marcia):
The wall with a vanline.
0:46:23 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. Wa curling in. Yeah. And talking for hours. That's what they're doing, essentially, but it's more curated now, and that's tricky. So, being really clear, having a lot of conversations, we talk a lot about sex, drugs, social media, all of that at the dinner table, even if we feel like, maybe they're a little young for this. I feel like it gets in at a different level of like, yeah, you might not have been expl ##osed to this yet, but fentanyl is a huge issue that's suddenly shown up in our town.
0:47:04 - (Stephanie):
Like, fentanyl overdoses. And so never take a pill or anything from someone ever, unless it comes from your parents and is prescribed. Right. So just having those really hard conversations of like, gosh, re, you're exposed to things that we weren't exposed to or weren't exposed to as early growing up, and that's hard. And you can come to us. It's okay. So in terms of the social media, though, I would say take the phone away, take the screens away.
0:47:38 - (Stephanie):
So computers, everything just stays in one area at night and let them actually sleep. And hopefully that'll help.
0:47:49 - (Marcia):
So let's go back to those difficult conversations about sex and drugs and rock and roll or whatever it is. Obviously, it depends on the child, but is there an age that you think it's too young or when would you think parents should start having those conversations?
0:48:03 - (Stephanie):
I think you can have them very early, actually. And you just tailor it to their age.
0:48:10 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:48:10 - (Stephanie):
So if you have a young child who's say, five and you're having a glass of wine and you're at dinner and the child asks if they can have some of the wine, they don't know that it's alcohol. And you're like, no, this is an adult drink. And when you are this age, you can choose whether or not you would like to try this. So you make it, like, really clear that you're already talking about drugs.
0:48:37 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:48:38 - (Stephanie):
Or one of the parent smokes. Same thing. Right. And then often there's. Sex is something we should be talking about way, way earlier and focused on healthy body. Like, your body is your body, you get to do with it what you want. And we take care of this place that we live in and just broaching these topics with little people so that they grow up with a healthy body image. Right. And they don't get into social media that tells them if you're not a size two and looking this way in a bikini, then you're not okay or whatever. Right. So I think those pieces are really critical.
0:49:22 - (Stephanie):
The more we can layer it of, like, as they get older, we make the conversation a little bit more appropriate to where they are in life.
0:49:33 - (Marcia):
Wonderful. What age is too early for them to be on social media, in your view?
0:49:40 - (Stephanie):
Well, that's tricky. I think it's changing every year. When my oldest was in middle school, we all came up. All the parents that we were all friends decided none of us would get a cell phone for our child until 8th grade. But now I have a 6th grader and she's got a cell phone, so I feel like it's getting earlier. But we still don't allow social media for her. She can have games and things. We know who her contacts are. I think it's important to have easy access to your child's phone or whatever kind of screen they're using and to set parental controls on it, because otherwise, you know, it's a can of worms. You just oh, you open it and you can get whatever you want.
0:50:27 - (Stephanie):
You can find whatever you want, and kids will stumble on that stuff unexpectedly, and then you'renna end up having to discuss it anyway. And so our oldest one is still not interested in social media. I know she's an outlier in that. She's like, this is so dumb. I'd rather just call my friends than have a conversation. You're so lucky, knowh.
0:50:49 - (Marcia):
My gosh, why can't she be friends with my daughter so I can have her do the same thing?
0:50:54 - (Stephanie):
But I think part of that is helping them create those friendships, you know, having the play dates or whatever after school. So they're actually getting time away from screens where they're socializing. And not just in, like, a supervised school setting, which has its own benefits, but, like, what do you do when there isn't something specific to do or watch? Like, can you go outside and make up a game?
0:51:25 - (Marcia):
Can can you daydream? I think kids don't even know how to dayreeam anymore. They like, you know, or just write a little short story that's not for school and just use their imagination.
0:51:33 - (Stephanie):
Exactly. Like, there are so many, so many ways that we've told them they need something else. They need the scrolling drug, right? And they buy into it because they don't know. So it's our job as parents to ##ime sometimes you have to push hard, right? Like, hey, we're going for a family hike today. We live there. Mountains right here. So we're like, we're going for a family hike today. And we'll get the uhh. I like, no, we're all going, everybody up. We're going. And then they get back and they're like, oh, that was, was beautiful.
0:52:07 - (Stephanie):
And, you know, so fun. We saw bear, we did whatever, right? And it's all of a sudden they have a different view and they feel better. They've gotten some fresh air, some exercise. Right. And they're not pouting anymore. Yeah, but if you let them just do their own thing and close the.
0:52:25 - (Marcia):
Door, they'll never come out. Food.
0:52:28 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. You're asking for trouble.
0:52:32 - (Marcia):
Yeah. Great. Now, you have a busy practice, and you have a family life, and a lot of the listeners also are juggling a million things. So what keeps you grounded and centered? And are there any non negotiables in your day or your week? I'm not. You know, not everybody has to have a morning routine, some people's morning routine. As I get up, I have some coffee, and I go to the car. Right. But is there anything that's non negotiable for you in your day or your week that, you know, you just don't feel the same otherwise and that maybe you could give some suggestions to some people?
0:53:02 - (Stephanie):
Yeah. So my biggest non negotiable is actually exercise. And. And for me, it's like I have to get outside. Like, I don't feel right in my body if I'm not breathing some fresh air. And even if it's my exercise for the day, is taking the dog for a walk.
0:53:21 - (Marcia):
Right.
0:53:21 - (Stephanie):
So whatever that looks like, like, if I don't have that, my body doesn't feel good, I don't feel good. I can't think. Right. So that's a complete non negotiable for me, another non negotiable is time with family. So setting time aside and having connection time with my husband or with the whole family, we eat dinner together every night and we talk, and that feels like a really important way to just reconnect at the end of our very different busy days.
0:53:57 - (Stephanie):
And then seeing friends is important as well. So, like, having support, whatever your support network looks like. I try to combine some things sometimes because things are busy. So I have one friend that I meet all the time. We hike all the time together, and that's a weekly thing. Like, if we can't make it, I notice a difference in my week. I'm like, oh, it's not as fun. Don't feel as great as when I get to hike with her all the time. So I think those pieces, whatever those pieces are for people, whether it's your coffee in the morning or whatever, making it kind of a ritual is really helpful and important. I feel like we've lost ritual a lot in our society. So for me, it's a ritual, like exercises a ritual. Having family time is a ritual. We light a candle. We do.
0:54:55 - (Stephanie):
We go around the table and say certain things like what was your high and your low of the day or something like that, and having a specific day and time that I meet with my friend every week to go for a hike. So it'does feel ritualistic in that way.
0:55:13 - (Marcia):
And human beings are used to. For thousands of years we had rituals, whether it was religious rituals or family rituals or personal rituals. And I think you're right, we're missing a lot of that. And that also provides like a sense of stability, right. That there's something, you know, you, your go to and it helps bring you back to your center. So if there was one thing you wanted people to take away from this podcast episode, what would that be?
0:55:40 - (Stephanie):
There would be a lot of things that be hard to narrow it down to one. But maybe, I guess I feel like we live in a time where we're always trying to make ourselves better and there's a lot of pressure to be better. And so while I feel like it's important to do your work on yourself, I also feel like it's important to have love and acceptance for wherever you're at. So like having empathy, love, acceptance for who you are right now.
0:56:10 - (Stephanie):
Whatever your struggles are, whatever your strengths are, celebrating the strengths and being gentle with yourself, whether you're a parent or a grandparent or not a parent at all, like to have that gentleness for yourself and for others in the world. Know that everybody's carrying around their big heavy bag of whatever it is from their life and to just have gentleness for them as well.
0:56:41 - (Marcia):
That's wonderful. Well, how can people work with you? And if they want to? I don't know if you're even taking clients now because you seems like you have a lot that you could be talking about and I know will put your website below as well, and your new podcast. But how can people work with you? And what kinds of clients do you work with right now, given all that you've got going on?
0:57:00 - (Stephanie):
Sure. So if you are in Colorado, either you live here or you're visiting, I could work with you as a therapist. That's where my license is, and I'm working mostly with expectant and new parents and little ones up to about age five. But I also have clients who are in their sixties and seventies who are doing kind of the early attachment work as well. So you can find me for that on my doctor Dugar therapy website, which will be in the notes, I'm guessing.
0:57:29 - (Stephanie):
And then if you wan toa do the coaching piece or courses, that's on my other website, which is prepared for parenthood. And I have courses for people who are becoming moms, people who are becoming parents generally, and then specifically new moms. So moms who are within that first year to two years post baby and just coaching in general for parents of children, either expecting parents or parents of children up to about age five. And I stop at age five because that's when they go into school and things shift a lot.
0:58:10 - (Stephanie):
But obviously having older kids, I know the spectrum pretty well of lots of different things, but that's my specialty.
0:58:18 - (Marcia):
Well, fantastic. And I'm going toa ask you one final question. Is there a book or a poem or a mantra or a movie that really impacted you? And what was that and, and why?
0:58:34 - (Stephanie):
That's a great question. Probably my favorite poet is Mary Oliver, and she has this poem and I can't remember the name of it, but it's like you don't have to be good. You don't have to crawl through the desert on your knees and kind of beg for forgiveness. Like, you just have to love the soft animal of your body and kind of live in that space. And so I always kind of come back to that, especially like for myself, but also when I'm thinking about children because they're so little and precious and like, you know, they're trying to find their way in this world that we live in. So I would say that her work and that poem especially has impacted me.
0:59:25 - (Marcia):
Well, that is a beautiful way to end this episode. And I know you've got so many great nuggets of information. So if you are listening and you thought this was helpful, please share this episode with the parents, the soon to be parents, the want toabe parents, the grandparents, anybody that you know that deals with children, because it's a very long way from the days when I had a son when there was only a few books out there. And this looks like it gives the full spectrum.
0:59:53 - (Marcia):
So thank you very much, Doctor Stephanie Dugger for being with us. And please make sure that you all like, share and subscribe to the podcast. Thanks again.
1:00:02 - (Stephanie):
Thank you.
1:00:05 - (Marcia):
Thanks so much for joining us. Stay tuned for the next episode. If you like what you heard, subscribe and share it with others
